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Hello ... I have two pistols a 9mm Beretta px4 compact storm and a S&W airweight 38 special. When I shoot the 9mm my grouping is tight and right around the bulls-eye. But when I shoot my 38 special the grouping is tight but consistently high and to the right (at all yardages). I can compensate for this by shooting low and to the left thereby punching out the center of the target ... but I'd rather not have to rely on this when the chips are down.

Any tips or thoughts on why the 38 special grouping is high and to the right ... perhaps it is just muzzle flip from that small gun shooting such a big slug. All answers welcome (even humorous ones). Thanks much in advance. bob

I'm not an expert or anything, but it just sounds a little like your trigger pull may be influencing the gun to go right.

Is the groupings from firing on double action only? Have you tried cocking the hammer before each shot to see if the groups changed?

This might help you on your trigger pull.

robertflegal wrote:Hello ... I have two pistols a 9mm Beretta px4 compact storm and a S&W airweight 38 special. When I shoot the 9mm my grouping is tight and right around the bulls-eye. But when I shoot my 38 special the grouping is tight but consistently high and to the right (at all yardages). I can compensate for this by shooting low and to the left thereby punching out the center of the target ... but I'd rather not have to rely on this when the chips are down.

Any tips or thoughts on why the 38 special grouping is high and to the right ... perhaps it is just muzzle flip from that small gun shooting such a big slug. All answers welcome (even humorous ones). Thanks much in advance. bob

Assuming all else is equal, Bob, that is, things like sight picture, grip, trigger control, and seeing the sight picture when the revolver fires, and recognizing that you have a good group with the Airweight, I would suspect that you are just experiencing a somewhat common problem with a small revolver on which you cannot adjust the sights. If so, Kentucky Windage may remain in order. This is not a competition target handgun. It has one purpose in life, and if your nice off-center group is in the kill-zone at a relatively short range trust it and don't even worry about Kentucky Windage, as you can count on it to do its job. You do not tell us how far the group is off, and at what range, so this cannot be assessed.

Two suggestions.

First, hold the Airweight solid on the bench or side wall, depending upon where you shoot, and see whether you have similar results under those controlled conditions. If so, suspicion confirmed.

Secondly, if bucks are not a problem, put a CT laser on the Airweight. If when you adjust the laser properly all is cool, suspicion confirmed, plus then you have the inherent value of a laser on the little fellow.

The heavier double action trigger pull of the revolver and the recoil associated with a lightweight gun make it highly likely that the answer to the problem will be found in the chart Carlson1 provided.

Some vertical deviation between point of aim and point of impact at distance (7 yards or so and beyond) may occur with different loads, but horizontal deviation is almost always due to the shooter with a fixed sight revolver unless the front sight is bent.

Was going to post same correction target as Carlson posted. That target is for right-handers. If you're a lefty and missing top right, the lefty target says "pushing" is to blame, which is a trigger-control issue. Basically means you're not pulling trigger straight back, but instead are pulling back and to the right, thus "pushing" the muzzle right.

For right-handers, as shown in chart, the error is likely "heeling". The DPS firearms instructor at the CHL instructor course described this as squeezing with too much pressure on the three grip fingers and overly forcing the grip into the palm of the hand. This excess squeezing pressure causes a subtle shift in the alignment of the wrist, throwing your round off to the upper right. Tighten your grip with nothing in your hands and you'll notice this subtle tendency of the wrist to to pivot back toward your elbow when you do so. When shooting, a tight grip is OK, as long as it's balanced pressure and the wrist remains locked.

As Excaliber mentioned, much of these issue can be traced to heavier trigger and more recoil from the small revolver.

austinrealtor wrote:Was going to post same correction target as Carlson posted. That target is for right-handers. If you're a lefty and missing top right, the lefty target says "pushing" is to blame, which is a trigger-control issue. Basically means you're not pulling trigger straight back, but instead are pulling back and to the right, thus "pushing" the muzzle right.

For right-handers, as shown in chart, the error is likely "heeling". The DPS firearms instructor at the CHL instructor course described this as squeezing with too much pressure on the three grip fingers and overly forcing the grip into the palm of the hand. This excess squeezing pressure causes a subtle shift in the alignment of the wrist, throwing your round off to the upper right. Tighten your grip with nothing in your hands and you'll notice this subtle tendency of the wrist to to pivot back toward your elbow when you do so. When shooting, a tight grip is OK, as long as it's balanced pressure and the wrist remains locked.

As Excaliber mentioned, much of these issue can be traced to heavier trigger and more recoil from the small revolver.

Beat me to it.

Printable PDF versions of the correction guide can be found at http://www.gunsandammoblog.com/?p=65. Just hit the first link that says 'get the pdf here'. I took them over to Kinko's and had them shrink it down to about 4" square, then print the left on one side and the right on the other and laminate it. Just keep it in the range bag at all times for reference purposes.

Hey Everyone ...THANKS so much!

With all this great information I'm heading out the pistol range near my home tomorrow morning. I think several of you diagnosed it. I'm shooting the 38 special double action (cause that's how I'll be shooting when the chips are down). I did a little dry firing with your suggestions about 'heeling' in mind. And I can see the gun 'heel' (right and up) because I have a death grip with my right hand. And when I relax my right hand and use a bit more left hand pressure for a solid grip on the little gun, the 'heeling' stops. I bet with a more relaxed right hand the little airweight will be spot on (or at least close enough for the purpose at hand).

Thanks for the chart and all the comments. I'm amazed at the wisdom I find on this forum and your willingness to share it.
bob

robertflegal wrote:Hey Everyone ...THANKS so much!

With all this great information I'm heading out the pistol range near my home tomorrow morning. I think several of you diagnosed it. I'm shooting the 38 special double action (cause that's how I'll be shooting when the chips are down). I did a little dry firing with your suggestions about 'heeling' in mind. And I can see the gun 'heel' (right and up) because I have a death grip with my right hand. And when I relax my right hand and use a bit more left hand pressure for a solid grip on the little gun, the 'heeling' stops. I bet with a more relaxed right hand the little airweight will be spot on (or at least close enough for the purpose at hand).

Thanks for the chart and all the comments. I'm amazed at the wisdom I find on this forum and your willingness to share it.
bob

You're welcome, your invoice is in the mail

One other tip, as you adjust your grip a bit to fix the probable heeling issue, be sure you're still getting a good trigger squeeze straight back. Might take some repositioning of your finger and multiple reps to lock it into muscle memory. Just remember, regardless of how heavy the trigger pull is, you still need to pull it with the "fingerprint" part of your finger (not with the joint) in order to maintain consistency.

robertflegal wrote:Hey Everyone ...THANKS so much!

With all this great information I'm heading out the pistol range near my home tomorrow morning. I think several of you diagnosed it. I'm shooting the 38 special double action (cause that's how I'll be shooting when the chips are down). I did a little dry firing with your suggestions about 'heeling' in mind. And I can see the gun 'heel' (right and up) because I have a death grip with my right hand. And when I relax my right hand and use a bit more left hand pressure for a solid grip on the little gun, the 'heeling' stops. I bet with a more relaxed right hand the little airweight will be spot on (or at least close enough for the purpose at hand).

Thanks for the chart and all the comments. I'm amazed at the wisdom I find on this forum and your willingness to share it.
bob

Sharing info is what we're here for. Sometimes we teach, sometimes we learn, and, as the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers observes,
"He who teaches learns."

Please let us know how things turn out at the range.

austinrealtor wrote:

robertflegal wrote:Hey Everyone ...THANKS so much!

With all this great information I'm heading out the pistol range near my home tomorrow morning. I think several of you diagnosed it. I'm shooting the 38 special double action (cause that's how I'll be shooting when the chips are down). I did a little dry firing with your suggestions about 'heeling' in mind. And I can see the gun 'heel' (right and up) because I have a death grip with my right hand. And when I relax my right hand and use a bit more left hand pressure for a solid grip on the little gun, the 'heeling' stops. I bet with a more relaxed right hand the little airweight will be spot on (or at least close enough for the purpose at hand).

Thanks for the chart and all the comments. I'm amazed at the wisdom I find on this forum and your willingness to share it.
bob

You're welcome, your invoice is in the mail

One other tip, as you adjust your grip a bit to fix the probable heeling issue, be sure you're still getting a good trigger squeeze straight back. Might take some repositioning of your finger and multiple reps to lock it into muscle memory. Just remember, regardless of how heavy the trigger pull is, you still need to pull it with the "fingerprint" part of your finger (not with the joint) in order to maintain consistency.

This can vary. Many folks, myself included, use the "fingerprint" pad on single action guns, and the first joint on double action ones.

I suggest trying both and see what works for you.

Excaliber wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:You're welcome, your invoice is in the mail

One other tip, as you adjust your grip a bit to fix the probable heeling issue, be sure you're still getting a good trigger squeeze straight back. Might take some repositioning of your finger and multiple reps to lock it into muscle memory. Just remember, regardless of how heavy the trigger pull is, you still need to pull it with the "fingerprint" part of your finger (not with the joint) in order to maintain consistency.

This can vary. Many folks, myself included, use the "fingerprint" pad on single action guns, and the first joint on double action ones.

I suggest trying both and see what works for you.

I agree that everyone should experiment and find what works best for them. I used to use my joint, but my accuracy with double-action guns improved a lot when I switched to fingerprint on trigger. Of course, that's easier said than done with the lil' boot grips on a snub-nose revolver. And actually I probably do trigger a bit closer to the joint with my snub-nose. With larger double-action guns I try to use the fingerprint area.

But I've always been taught that finger joint on trigger can also cause a high-right miss for a right-hand shooter, thus reason I mentioned it. There is some theory I've read/discussed elsewhere that using the joint is double-edged sword because it can help with a heavier trigger pull weight, but the very motion of the trigger finger when connecting to trigger at the joint can add its own problems.

I'm a self-taught shooter, relying a lot on learning casually from other shooters and from reading the ideas of experts. What I've learned is the secret to accuracy is developing balance and consistency.

I already have a different off-hand grip for revolver vs. semi-auto, and of course the strong-hand grip is inherently different because of shape of the grip frame. So also using a different trigger squeeze technique is adding a third difference. All of this is what makes these little guns more challenging to learn to shoot accurately compared to a standard semi-auto.

YMMV

By the way, I've always found useful this article on shooting from Masaad Ayoob, and I noticed he too advocates using the joint (even on semi-autos), as well as using a death grip on the gun. His thoughts on how hard to grip were very helpful to me. I had the opposite problem of not gripping hard enough (old lessons from grandpa about gripping a small bird - "hard enough so it won't get away, but not so hard you squeeze it to death").

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or it may just have a banana barrel.