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Some friends want me to be the DD at a bar here that DOES NOT have a 51% sign. Not outside, not over the bar. Nowhere.....No 30.06 posting either. Does a 51% sign HAVE to be posted, or does the fact that it is a bar enough to prohibit legal carry inside?

tanker1983 wrote:Some friends want me to be the DD at a bar here that DOES NOT have a 51% sign. Not outside, not over the bar. Nowhere.....No 30.06 posting either. Does a 51% sign HAVE to be posted, or does the fact that it is a bar enough to prohibit legal carry inside?

The Texas Alcohol and Beverage Commission requires any location that sells alcohol to post one of two signs. One is the 51% sign IF they receive 51% or more of their income from the sale of alcohol for on premise consumption. The other sign is the 'Unlicensed possession' (usually blue) sign, and that is to be posted at any location that sells alcohol for on or off premise consumption and doesn't receive more than 51% of their income from alcohol sales for on premise consumption.

You can tell which one is required by looking at their physical license at the location if it says SIGN=RED (51% sign) or SIGN=BLUE (Unlicensed possession sign).

And, just because they don't post the bar with 51% does not mean it is not off-limits. However, the absence of a 51% sign if they are supposed to have one is a defense to prosecution, but you are still not supposed to carry there if you know they are a 51% place.

You can also check and see if they have a Food and Beverage license in the TABC database. If so, then they are NOT a bar and serve more food than booze.

Keith's on the ball tonight!

So. If I look at their License, and it states "sign=Red".Are they reaquired to also post a 51% sign. This bar ONLY sells alcohol for on-site consumption. Is the license considered notification?
There is no 30.06, 51% or blue "unlicensed possesion" sign anywhere. Seems odd.

I'm gettin too old for this junk and I have always hated bars, may just tell the fellas to arrange a cab...

From what I was told by a cop buddy who used to be a TABC agent. Posting the sign is not optional the establishment can get into trouble for not having required signage.

tanker1983 wrote: This bar ONLY sells alcohol for on-site consumption.

Do you mean they only sell on-site for on-site consumption and don't sell for off-site consumption? Or that they sell nothing but alcohol?

I thought the same thing. They have none..zero, zip, nada. The bar is in the hotel I am staying in. They sell ZERO food. Just booze. I may just have my buddies call me when they need a ride. I really don't wanna sit in there anyway.

Should I be a good guy and tell the bartender or someone from the Hotel (manager) maybe tomorrow when the bar is closed? The hotel owns it.

There should still be a sign somewhere, but since it is in a hotel, how the bar is licensed may make a difference in whether it's a 51% location. If the hotel holds the liquor license, I doubt it would be 51% because I'm sure the revenue from the hotel rooms is probably more than what the bar sells. If the bar is licensed as it's own business entity or is contracted out to an outside vendor, then it could still possibly be 51%. You really would need to see the license to find out.

Have you looked at the hotel entrance for a sign?

tanker1983 wrote:I thought the same thing. They have none..zero, zip, nada. The bar is in the hotel I am staying in. They sell ZERO food. Just booze. I may just have my buddies call me when they need a ride. I really don't wanna sit in there anyway.

Should I be a good guy and tell the bartender or someone from the Hotel (manager) maybe tomorrow when the bar is closed? The hotel owns it.

I'm not sure of the full positive and negative effects for the CHL'er by telling them. Based on what Keith B wrote, not having the sign doesn't make it legal, it is just a defense to prosecution for the CHL'er. A good CHL'er should recognize that it is a bar and most likely derives most of its profit from alcohol and thus would not need a sign to tell him/her that he/she should not enter with a concealed handgun.

EDIT: BrianSW99 makes a good point.

Rather than telling them yourself, you can inform TABC that they don't have any signs posted. They'll take care of it.

The state laws (as enforced by TABC but not really TABC requiring things) require one of two signs. The Government Code requires any licensed premise that is 51% to post that sign. The Alcoholic Beverage Code requires any location with a license to post the blue sign if it is not required to post the 51% sign. Both signs are required to be posted at the entrance to the premises.

Hotels have some very weird rules and situations. Many hotels contract out the bar and or restaurant portions. In some cases, the hotel owns and operates these stores themselves. Both cases will affect how the license is given and where the postings must be. How the license is applied for also affects what areas are covered. For example, if the hotel wants to be able to send alcohol to your room through room service, the whole hotel is listed on the license. There may be (I think must be but don't remember for sure) a separate license for the mini-bar in the rooms. These affect things differently also.

The operable question on 51% is if the hotel runs the bar or not. If they do, and applied properly, then I sincerely doubt it could be a 51% location since they get so much of their income from rooms. If the bar is contracted out, it could be a 51% location. You would really need to check their license.

And now for the answer to your real question. The law states it is illegal for you to carry in a location that TABC has determined to be 51%. Note that it does not have to be truly 51%, just have TABC determine this. It also does not have to be posted to be prohibited, just have TABC determine this. The good news is that last legislative session (IIRC), we got a modification of the law passed that gives you a defense to being prosecuted if the location is not properly posted. That puts the burden of proof on you to prove that the signs were not present and means you can still be arrested for it. You have to prove the defense in court if arrested. In reality, if it is not posted, it is highly unlikely the officer would know it was 51%, but I am not sure you should rely on that.

In general, the best guideline I can give people to avoid problems is to not carry if you are going there to drink. If you are going for some other reason and drinking is an ancillary activity (like a bowling alley or dinner), it is probably okay to carry.

tanker1983 wrote:Some friends want me to be the DD at a bar here that DOES NOT have a 51% sign. Not outside, not over the bar. Nowhere.....No 30.06 posting either. Does a 51% sign HAVE to be posted, or does the fact that it is a bar enough to prohibit legal carry inside?

If they sell alcohol, they are required to post one of two signs (51% or unlicensed felony warning) depending on TABC's determination of their sales. There's also the pregnancy warning sign (often found in the men's bathroom ) and other required signs for on-premise consumption that have nothing to do with handguns.

They are not required to post a 30.06 sign, no matter how much alcohol they sell. However, they can choose to post a 30.06 sign, no matter how much or how little alcohol they sell. Trespass by a License Holder (30.06) is independent of TABC licenses or lack thereof.