TexasCHLforum.com

A motor vehicle—whether you own or otherwise lawfully have control of it—in a public place is not an extension of your home. Some of the differences are

• You cannot be intoxicated, drink, or possess an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a motor vehicle.
• You cannot be naked in a motor vehicle.
• You cannot have a handgun in public view in a motor vehicle.
• The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant.
• The police can arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the transportation code (such as expired registration) which in no way apply to a fixed residence.
• You must produce a driver license and proof of insurance when stopped in a motor vehicle.
• Motor vehicles on private property are subject to trespass laws—whether that property is generally open to the public or not.
• The Federal "gun free school zone" law prohibits carrying loaded firearms in a motor vehicle by a person who does not have a CHL from the same state. This law specifically does not apply to residences within the school zone.
• In many municipalities it is illegal to sleep in a motor vehicle parked in a public place.

Recent changes in Texas law affected motor vehicles in two ways:

• The Motorist Protection Act allows a person who does not have a CHL to possess a concealed handgun in a motor vehicle.
• The Castle Doctrine creates a presumption of reasonableness if you use deadly force against someone attempting to enter or remove you by force from your motor vehicle.

Even the MPA differs from the law related to residences. You lose MPA protection if the handgun is visible or if you commit any offense other than a class C traffic misdemeanor. Possessing a handgun per se does not become an offense if you commit another offense in your home.

All of the above discussion is not relevant to an RV that is stationary and being used as a residence.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:A motor vehicle—whether you own or otherwise lawfully have control of it—in a public place is not an extension of your home. Some of the differences are

• You cannot be intoxicated, drink, or possess an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a motor vehicle.
• You cannot be naked in a motor vehicle.
• You cannot have a handgun in public view in a motor vehicle.
• The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant.
• The police can arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the transportation code (such as expired registration) which in no way apply to a fixed residence.
• You must produce a driver license and proof of insurance when stopped in a motor vehicle.
• Motor vehicles on private property are subject to trespass laws—whether that property is generally open to the public or not.
• The Federal "gun free school zone" law prohibits carrying loaded firearms in a motor vehicle by a person who does not have a CHL from the same state. This law specifically does not apply to residences within the school zone.
• In many municipalities it is illegal to sleep in a motor vehicle parked in a public place.

Recent changes in Texas law affected motor vehicles in two ways:

• The Motorist Protection Act allows a person who does not have a CHL to possess a concealed handgun in a motor vehicle.
• The Castle Doctrine creates a presumption of reasonableness if you use deadly force against someone attempting to enter or remove you by force from your motor vehicle.

Even the MPA differs from the law related to residences. You lose MPA protection if the handgun is visible or if you commit any offense other than a class C traffic misdemeanor. Possessing a handgun per se does not become an offense if you commit another offense in your home.

All of the above discussion is not relevant to an RV that is stationary and being used as a residence.

- Jim

This is a darn good synopsis. You make some great points to distinguish various schools of thought regarding "my car is my castle".

Thank you.

We often use shorthand for various concepts, but I think this distinction is at least as important as the difference between a clip and a magazine.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote: [*]You cannot be naked in a motor vehicle.

Try standing naked in front of an open window in your home where other people can see you and see what happens!

I would qualify the list considerably. The distinguishing characteristic is that a moving motor vehicle on a public roadway is treated differently than a dwelling. A stationary motor vehicle on private property is not subject to the same rules. The distinction is that the state changes the laws when you leave fully private property and start moving along public property.

• You cannot be intoxicated, drink, or possess an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a motor vehicle while it is in motion (on a public roadway?--not sure on that). You likewise can not be intoxicated in public, such as on your front lawn.
• You cannot be naked in a motor vehicle or your house if your naked body is visible to the public. Covering the windows of the motor vehicle or the house to obscure your naked body would make it allowable.
• You cannot have a handgun in public view in a motor vehicle or on your property in a way calculated to intimidate another. You may open carry at home in a way not calculated to intimidate but may only do so under certain legally defined activities when on public property.
• The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant if you give them permission or probable cause. The same is true for your house.
• The police can arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the transportation code (such as expired registration) which in no way apply to a fixed residence. They can also arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the penal code when you are at home should they wish to do so.
• You must produce a driver license and proof of insurance when stopped in a motor vehicle when driving on a public roadway. You are required to produce your name, address, and DOB to an officer who has detained, arrested, or identified you as a likely witness to a crime no matter where you are.
• Motor vehicles on private property are subject to trespass laws—whether that property is generally open to the public or not. If you build your house on someone else's private property, it will likewise be subject to these laws.
• The Federal "gun free school zone" law prohibits carrying loaded firearms in a motor vehicle by a person who does not have a CHL from the same state. This law specifically does not apply to residences within the school zone as it addresses transportation and commerce flowing through it.
• In many municipalities it is illegal to sleep in a motor vehicle parked in a public place. It is similarly illegal in many municipalities to make a public place your home, temporarily or permanently. Laws restricting vagrants, homeless people sleeping on doorways or under bridges, and panhandling are examples.

seamusTX wrote: [*]The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant.

In some situations but not generally...

Hoi Polloi wrote:I would qualify the list considerably. The distinguishing characteristic is that a moving motor vehicle on a public roadway is treated differently than a dwelling. A stationary motor vehicle on private property is not subject to the same rules. The distinction is that the state changes the laws when you leave fully private property and start moving along public property.

• You cannot be intoxicated, drink, or possess an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a motor vehicle while it is in motion (on a public roadway?--not sure on that). You likewise can not be intoxicated in public, such as on your front lawn.
• You cannot be naked in a motor vehicle or your house if your naked body is visible to the public. Covering the windows of the motor vehicle or the house to obscure your naked body would make it allowable.
• You cannot have a handgun in public view in a motor vehicle or on your property in a way calculated to intimidate another. You may open carry at home in a way not calculated to intimidate but may only do so under certain legally defined activities when on public property.
• The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant if you give them permission or probable cause. The same is true for your house.
• The police can arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the transportation code (such as expired registration) which in no way apply to a fixed residence. They can also arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the penal code when you are at home should they wish to do so.
• You must produce a driver license and proof of insurance when stopped in a motor vehicle when driving on a public roadway. You are required to produce your name, address, and DOB to an officer who has detained, arrested, or identified you as a likely witness to a crime no matter where you are.
• Motor vehicles on private property are subject to trespass laws—whether that property is generally open to the public or not. If you build your house on someone else's private property, it will likewise be subject to these laws.
• The Federal "gun free school zone" law prohibits carrying loaded firearms in a motor vehicle by a person who does not have a CHL from the same state. This law specifically does not apply to residences within the school zone as it addresses transportation and commerce flowing through it.
• In many municipalities it is illegal to sleep in a motor vehicle parked in a public place. It is similarly illegal in many municipalities to make a public place your home, temporarily or permanently. Laws restricting vagrants, homeless people sleeping on doorways or under bridges, and panhandling are examples.

^^^^^Excellent!

Lots to consider from both points of view.

A few minor corrections/clarifications in green:

Hoi Polloi wrote:

• You cannot be intoxicated, drink, or possess an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a motor vehicle while it is in motion (on a public roadway?--not sure on that). You likewise can not be intoxicated in public, such as on your front lawn.
  You can be intoxicated in public such as on your front lawn. You cannot be intoxicated to the degree that it endangers yourself or someone else there. You can be that intoxicated inside your own home though, without breaking the law. This is not true for in a car. On the possession law, it is illegal to have a container of alcoholic beverage that has been opened, even if the top is screwed back on and you are not drinking, in a car on any public street, whether the car is parked, shut down, or being driven. You can have opened containers of alcoholic beverages in your house.
• You cannot have a handgun in public view in a motor vehicle or on your property in a way calculated to intimidate another. You may open carry at home in a way not calculated to intimidate but may only do so under certain legally defined activities when on public property.
  The correct wording is in a manner calculated to alarm. I don't know if that makes a difference in this to you or not. But, you cannot legally have the weapon in public view in your car at all. This is part of 46.02 as the definition of the crime of unlawfully carrying.
• The police can remove you from your motor vehicle and search it without a warrant if you give them permission or probable cause. The same is true for your house.
  Not quite. By SCOTUS decision, a car is exigent circumstances for a search in and of itself. They can, with probable cause, order you to exit a vehicle and search it based on the fact that it is mobile. The standards for searching a house based on exigent circumstances (requires probable cause but negates the need for a warrant) are much higher.
• The police can arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the transportation code (such as expired registration) which in no way apply to a fixed residence. They can also arrest you for any number of picayune offenses of the penal code when you are at home should they wish to do so.
  I think what he was pointing out here is that the offenses in the transportation code do not apply to your home. The penal code offenses may also be picayune but apply to you both in a home or car (for the most part).
• You must produce a driver license and proof of insurance when stopped in a motor vehicle when driving on a public roadway. You are required to produce your name, address, and DOB to an officer who has detained, arrested, or identified you as a likely witness to a crime no matter where you are.
  Nope, you are only required to identify yourself when you are arrested. Not when detained or identified as a witness. You may not lie then about who you are, but you do not have to answer. But to show how much I agree that this is not a difference to consider, I will point out that the Court of Criminal Appeals has ruled that a traffic stop is an arrest in Texas. Many officers claim it is a detention, but they are wrong and this is just one example of why.

Let's add another dimension that often comes in RV boards - Motor Homes. Technically, it is a vehicle which may or may not be subject to the same rules as other vehicles. Texas law provides that you can have open containers in alcohol in a motor home (like an open wine bottle in the fridge. It is hotly debated as to whether a passenger sitting at the dinette in a moving or parked motor home could be drinking a beer.

Guns in the motor home also are an interesting question. There is not question about the open display but the placement of them (say a loaded shotgun in a bedroom closet) is not clearly defined anywhere.

There is also considerable discussion of the seat belt rules. Could a motor home be stopped if an LEO observes a passenger moving about inside the motor home while it is underway? Tour buses are generally given an exemption for this though I'm not sure that there is specific legal language that provides for it.

My guess is that not 1 LEO in 20 understands the classes of drivers licenses for motor homes in Texas. I was stopped by an unmarked car for unsafe driving and he screamed at me for about 5 minutes about how unsafely I was operating a 30,000 vehicle. I handed him my Class C driver's license and if I had truly been operating a 30,000 vehicle (it's not), I would not have been doing so legally.

My point here (and with some to the points between a house and a motor vehicle) is that any given situation is dependent on the responding LEO's understanding of it. Like the invalid 30.06 sign discussions, not LEOs split the hairs as finely as we do here on the forum.

Hoi Polloi, your comments are valid. I just want to point out that the first line of my post says, "in a public place."

You cannot, for example, drink alcohol in your car in the parking lot of a liquor store or bar. People are often arrested for DWI on private property.

You can do almost anything in a car that is on your own property that otherwise is legal to do outdoors. You can even drive drunk on your own property.

If you are in a car in a public place and a LEO orders you to get out, you must get out. In your home, you don't even have to answer the door. They cannot enter or take you out, unless they have an exigent circumstances reason.

However, I am not interested in every hypothetical situation. I wanted to point out that saying a motor vehicle is an extension of your home is an overly broad generalization. Someone who took it literally could get into a lot of trouble.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Hoi Polloi, your comments are valid. I just want to point out that the first line of my post says, "in a public place."

You cannot, for example, drink alcohol in your car in the parking lot of a liquor store or bar. People are often arrested for DWI on private property.

You can do almost anything in a car that is on your own property that otherwise is legal to do outdoors. You can even drive drunk on your own property.

If you are in a car in a public place and a LEO orders you to get out, you must get out. In your home, you don't even have to answer the door. They cannot enter or take you out, unless they have an exigent circumstances reason.

However, I am not interested in every hypothetical situation. I wanted to point out that saying a motor vehicle is an extension of your home is an overly broad generalization. Someone who took it literally could get into a lot of trouble.

- Jim

Ah! Yes, I understand and agree with your point.

It is risky and inaccurate to equate being in one's home with driving one's car. The latter almost always includes public property and private property owned by others, and further adds another set of laws governing both.