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Last night I was reading a gun magazine at the store. I can't recall which one, so I can't
post a link, but there was an interesting article (probably by Massad Ayoob) regarding the
forensic evidence uncovered at 2 different shooting sites.

Case 1. In Dallas, a drunken ex-boyfriend went to his former girlfriend's apartment to kill her.
He was busy breaking down her door when she called 911 but realized that he would get inside well
before Dallas PD could arrive.

She picked up a .22 rifle and fired one shot through the door. When the LEO's arrived they found
the ex-boyfriend an EX-BOYFRIEND, as in "expired on the apartment hall's floor". The autopsy revealed 2 bullet
wounds to his chest, and 2 projectiles in his heart.

But the woman had only 1 round in the rifle, and had only fired one round through the door. It turns out that
she was using a unique .22 rifle without rifling in the barrel, intended for "mini-skeet" shooting. The bullet was
a frangible type. When it went through the door it split fore and aft, and both pieces still had velocity to pierce
him deep enough to reach the heart.

Case 2. In a rural Texas county (not further ID'd in the story), there was a large card game that went on weekly.
Although the local sheriff knew that this gambling went on, he had drug criminals and more important crimes to
work on than a local gambling operation.

Until the night that the 911 call came in for 2 shooting deaths. It seems that one of the players who was a nice
guy when sober, but a mean drunk, had come to the conclusion that he was being cheated. He took out a long-barrelled
.357 Magnum revolver (6" or 8", IIRC) and started menacing the other players. They all tried to bolt for the one door
out of the place.

The shooter fired one round of .357 Magnum JSP. Both Victims 1 and 2 were ahead of the shooter, on their way to get
out the door. The bullet hit Victim 1 under the left armpit, traversed his torso, and exited under his right armpit.
The bullet then entered Victim 2 at the same spot, under the left armpit, traversed his torso, and almost exited at
his right armpit.

The LEO's took about 1 hour to respond since this place was way out in the boonies, plus the LEO's then had to find it
once they were in the area.

So one .357 Magnum round killed 2 men. A comment was made in the article that this round was made for penetration
as opposed to expansion.

By the way, the mean drunk who killed the two men was BLIND. Sheesh.

SIA

How a Blind can play cards? Does ho count on not being cheated when playing too?

Not too weird, there's an old story floating around about a cop taking fire from a guy proned out in the back of a van, the cop shot back with a .41 mag, penetrated the rear corner near the taillight, entered the BG in the shoulder and exited out of his shoe. The bullet continued and ricocheted in the van, striking another occupant (but not killing).

Interesting.

I'm guessing she was no billed since he was entering with force? Wonder if he had a weapon.

Not the same, but it reminds of a guy we treated when I worked in the ER. He said he had been shot, and judging by the entrance wound we found just above his buttock, it appeared to have been a .22. There was no exit wound. Also, we could find no bullet on any of the x-rays we took, including of his leg on that side, and his abdomen or thorax. All vitals were normal, and he had normal breath sounds and heart rythm. He had been shot in the commission of a crime and was in police custody when brought in. He appeared to be stable, alert, and oriented, so he was transferred by ambulance to the hospital wing of L.A. County Jail for further treatment and processing in the judicial system.

We heard a few days later from the ambulance crew that transported him that he had started to crump shortly before arrival at County Jail, exhibiting all the classic signs of a head injury. On x-ray, the bullet was found just under the crown of his skull. As I recall, there was no stippling or anything like that around the entry wound to indicate that he was shot at anywhere near muzzle contact distance, and I have no idea if the weapon used was a rifle or a pistol; but I assume that given the distance the bullet traveled, it must have required rifle velocity to do that.

I don't remember if the guy survived or not.

I believe the magazine was "American Handgunner".

I think a couple of lessons can be taken from those two instances. First if you are going to rely on a handgun that emphasizes velocity (9mm, 357, etc.), go with a good hollowpoint designed for defense. Steer clear of fmj and sp that are designed for penetration. Penetration and velocity generally equal overpenetration issues. For those of you that don't care about overpenetration issues it also means that you're using bullets that are wasting energy that could have been dumped into the bad guy doing more damage.

Second, it's a reminder that the average home, while offering plenty of concealment, doesn't offer much in terms of cover. Other than bookcases and older appliances made primaily of metal, there isn't a whole lot that will stop a bullet.

This also transfers to what exactly is a safe direction, as far as the "always keep the muzzle in a safe direction" rule. Generally, you're bullet will likely penetrate multiple walls, floors, etc. and should you a ND, you run the risk of hitting someone/something in another room.

fannypacker wrote:I believe the magazine was "American Handgunner".

While this may ALSO have been in "American Handgunner", I read it in the September issue of "Shooting Times". The semi-regular feature is called "Crime Lab"...the man who writes them used to work at the crime lab in Dallas and saw all sorts of weird stuff, from old-timey calibers that no one could find another cartridge intact to stuff like these oddities...they are ALWAYS an interesting read.

I've read that before also.

punkndisorderly wrote: For those of you that don't care about overpenetration issues it also means that you're using bullets that are wasting energy that could have been dumped into the bad guy doing more damage.

We've been down this road before but...

http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 15#p561684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

punkndisorderly wrote:Second, it's a reminder that the average home, while offering plenty of concealment, doesn't offer much in terms of cover. Other than bookcases and older appliances made primaily of metal, there isn't a whole lot that will stop a bullet.

This also transfers to what exactly is a safe direction, as far as the "always keep the muzzle in a safe direction" rule. Generally, you're bullet will likely penetrate multiple walls, floors, etc. and should you a ND, you run the risk of hitting someone/something in another room.

I know that this doesn't apply to all homes, nor even to all walls of the homes where it does apply, but my house in particular has a brick exterior. Unless the bullet travels out a window, or through an exterior door, handgun bullets will likely stay inside the walls of my home. I can't say for certain that this would be true with a round from an AR15, but my gut feeling is that it would be.......and I'm pretty certain that brick would be penetrated, at least partially, by a .308 caliber bullet from my M1A.

Also, the exteriors of all the homes in my neighborhood are brick. I am pretty sure that anything that got slowed down by my own exterior walls would likely not penetrate their walls. So it would have to take two windows/doors in perfect line for one of my rounds to enter any of my neighbors' homes. I'm not saying it couldn't happen; and I'm not saying that it isn't a concern of mine. I'm just saying that while there are certainly risks, they may not be as high as we are prone to believing. Let me state categorically that I am only speaking about exterior walls. I'm well aware of the dangers to other occupants of my home relative to interior walls.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

punkndisorderly wrote:Second, it's a reminder that the average home, while offering plenty of concealment, doesn't offer much in terms of cover. Other than bookcases and older appliances made primaily of metal, there isn't a whole lot that will stop a bullet.

This also transfers to what exactly is a safe direction, as far as the "always keep the muzzle in a safe direction" rule. Generally, you're bullet will likely penetrate multiple walls, floors, etc. and should you a ND, you run the risk of hitting someone/something in another room.

I know that this doesn't apply to all homes, nor even to all walls of the homes where it does apply, but my house in particular has a brick exterior. Unless the bullet travels out a window, or through an exterior door, handgun bullets will likely stay inside the walls of my home. I can't say for certain that this would be true with a round from an AR15, but my gut feeling is that it would be.......and I'm pretty certain that brick would be penetrated, at least partially, by a .308 caliber bullet from my M1A.

I can't find the reference at the moment, but have seen penetration test videos by the Naval Weapons Lab and seem to remember a 5.56 round doesn't penetrate brick but a 7.62 round will. Penetration also depends on the angle of impact....less than 90 degrees means the bullet path is longer and hence less likely to penetrate.

VMI77 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

punkndisorderly wrote:Second, it's a reminder that the average home, while offering plenty of concealment, doesn't offer much in terms of cover. Other than bookcases and older appliances made primaily of metal, there isn't a whole lot that will stop a bullet.

This also transfers to what exactly is a safe direction, as far as the "always keep the muzzle in a safe direction" rule. Generally, you're bullet will likely penetrate multiple walls, floors, etc. and should you a ND, you run the risk of hitting someone/something in another room.

I know that this doesn't apply to all homes, nor even to all walls of the homes where it does apply, but my house in particular has a brick exterior. Unless the bullet travels out a window, or through an exterior door, handgun bullets will likely stay inside the walls of my home. I can't say for certain that this would be true with a round from an AR15, but my gut feeling is that it would be.......and I'm pretty certain that brick would be penetrated, at least partially, by a .308 caliber bullet from my M1A.

I can't find the reference at the moment, but have seen penetration test videos by the Naval Weapons Lab and seem to remember a 5.56 round doesn't penetrate brick but a 7.62 round will. Penetration also depends on the angle of impact....less than 90 degrees means the bullet path is longer and hence less likely to penetrate.

If you ever find that reference, I'd like to see it if there's a link to it somewhere.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

punkndisorderly wrote:Second, it's a reminder that the average home, while offering plenty of concealment, doesn't offer much in terms of cover. Other than bookcases and older appliances made primaily of metal, there isn't a whole lot that will stop a bullet.

This also transfers to what exactly is a safe direction, as far as the "always keep the muzzle in a safe direction" rule. Generally, you're bullet will likely penetrate multiple walls, floors, etc. and should you a ND, you run the risk of hitting someone/something in another room.

I know that this doesn't apply to all homes, nor even to all walls of the homes where it does apply, but my house in particular has a brick exterior. Unless the bullet travels out a window, or through an exterior door, handgun bullets will likely stay inside the walls of my home. I can't say for certain that this would be true with a round from an AR15, but my gut feeling is that it would be.......and I'm pretty certain that brick would be penetrated, at least partially, by a .308 caliber bullet from my M1A.

I can't find the reference at the moment, but have seen penetration test videos by the Naval Weapons Lab and seem to remember a 5.56 round doesn't penetrate brick but a 7.62 round will. Penetration also depends on the angle of impact....less than 90 degrees means the bullet path is longer and hence less likely to penetrate.

If you ever find that reference, I'd like to see it if there's a link to it somewhere.

Didn't find the original link but found another one. I remembered wrong. 5.56 penetrates brick when impact is straight on but not when impact is at an angle less than 90 degrees.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e0_1254281786

that was a pretty cool video. I think the moral of it is to not get shot at by a .50cal