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I've read in many places how difference brands and styles will shoot differently and one should find which ammo their gun likes best. Being a bit hard headed and having a large degree of stubbornness I figured that only really came into the picture when doing high level target shooting or long range shooting.

To prove myself right I set a paper plate up at about 30 yards and set up to shoot my Marlin 39A and brought down a box of Winchester T22 target rounds and a box of the cheap Winchester Wildcat. I shot from a picnic table resting my arms to steady. No sandbags or other rest. The rifle also has no optics. It's just too much fun working the lever in rapid fire and the rifle looks so good without a scope. What with my poor, and getting worse, vision that my change but with this gun I am happy with minute of tin can accuracy.

I only fired one 5 round group of each ammo. (Hate wasting ammo on paper with this rifle.) See the target below:



I labeled the groups and the X is over a .38 hold I had previously shot into the plate. I didn't measure the group sizes but it is quite obvious there was a huge difference between the two type of ammo. To really be conclusive I need to repeat this exercise many more times but I have proven to at least my satisfaction it is best to find the correct ammo. Kind of like working up a best load, except you have to do it at the store with money instead of at the loading bench.

I have not tried this experiment with any of mine. I'm too cheap. Due to that cheapness, I have used a few different kinds of ammo in my handguns over the years and noticed that I keep coming back to WWB for practice at the range. Some of the other cheaper and dirtier brands I didn't like so much and they were less accurate. I have not taken several or even a few brands out to the range at the same time to try this experiment myself.

For my .22's I just get that Winchester M22 stuff at Walmart. Now, I did trip across an interesting article on this subject just a minute ago that I'm going to read through.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of- ... ison-test/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For my Colt M4, during my research before buying it, I had found that several people had done their experiments with different ammo and posted their findings in blogs. IIRC, it seemed like most of them agreed that Buffalo Bore Sniper 69gr. Sierra Matchking BTHP Ammo worked the best in my rifle. So, when I was down at Ammunition To Go last week I picked up a few boxes and loaded a couple of mags with it for HD. I haven't fired any of it yet, but will do that in a couple of weeks. I also picked up 500 rounds of some Fiocchi stuff that I will be able to make at least some comparison to.

What's the twist on that M4? Both my ARs are 1 in 9 , I usually have to shoot 55s

glbedd53 wrote:What's the twist on that M4? Both my ARs are 1 in 9 , I usually have to shoot 55s

1:7

Do you know about twist rate vs. grains? I only recently learned about that relationship.

EDITED TO ADD LINK

C-dub wrote:

glbedd53 wrote:What's the twist on that M4? Both my ARs are 1 in 9 , I usually have to shoot 55s

1:7

Do you know about twist rate vs. grains? I only recently learned about that relationship.

Technically, its the length of the bullet that matters but ,in general, heavier bullets are longer, so in most cases, its the same thing. There was a good article on this at AR15.com some time ago. I'll see if I can find it and post the link.

HERE is the link: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a lot more at that site about ammo. Some of their discussions get much worse than ours here, BTW.

Heartland Patriot wrote:EDITED TO ADD LINK

C-dub wrote:

glbedd53 wrote:What's the twist on that M4? Both my ARs are 1 in 9 , I usually have to shoot 55s

1:7

Do you know about twist rate vs. grains? I only recently learned about that relationship.

Technically, its the length of the bullet that matters but ,in general, heavier bullets are longer, so in most cases, its the same thing. There was a good article on this at AR15.com some time ago. I'll see if I can find it and post the link.

HERE is the link: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a lot more at that site about ammo. Some of their discussions get much worse than ours here, BTW.

That is one of the articles I read before going with the 1:7.

I have not shot a lot of heavier bullets through either one of mine but the ones I did try didn't group well. The 75gr went all over the place.

Learned about rate of twist shooting black powder. 50cal guns designed for round ball have a 1 in 66 twist. Round ball will be accurate but conicals spray. That's why modern black powder guns don't shoot RB worth anything.

glbedd53 wrote:I have not shot a lot of heavier bullets through either one of mine but the ones I did try didn't group well. The 75gr went all over the place.

From what I've read, the 1:9 twist rifles don't handle bullets from the mid 60 grains and up. Some will, but most won't. But, as I'm new to all of this, as Heartland Patriot has pointed out, it appears to be more about bullet length than weight. If one doesn't reload, it is difficult for many of use to know the bullet length, so we go with a rough guess based on weight. This might be why some folks can shoot some of the heavier weighted rounds through their 1:9 twist rifles. The bullet might be just a bit shorter. I wonder if that anything to do with the amount of lead in a bullet that would make it heavier?

wharvey wrote:Learned about rate of twist shooting black powder. 50cal guns designed for round ball have a 1 in 66 twist. Round ball will be accurate but conicals spray. That's why modern black powder guns don't shoot RB worth anything.

1:6 or 1:66? Typo I hope.

Until recently I never knew it was that much about length. I thought it had more to do with weight.(an "inertia" type thing).

C-dub wrote:

glbedd53 wrote:I have not shot a lot of heavier bullets through either one of mine but the ones I did try didn't group well. The 75gr went all over the place.

From what I've read, the 1:9 twist rifles don't handle bullets from the mid 60 grains and up. Some will, but most won't. But, as I'm new to all of this, as Heartland Patriot has pointed out, it appears to be more about bullet length than weight. If one doesn't reload, it is difficult for many of use to know the bullet length, so we go with a rough guess based on weight. This might be why some folks can shoot some of the heavier weighted rounds through their 1:9 twist rifles. The bullet might be just a bit shorter. I wonder if that anything to do with the amount of lead in a bullet that would make it heavier?

Yes, it does. 62 grain M855, the military's NATO standard round, uses a bullet with a small piece of steel in the tip, to enhance penetration. Steel is less dense than lead, so this has the practical effect of making the bullet longer than if it were all lead and copper at that weight. 62 grain bullets that are lead and copper only are a bit shorter and stabilize better in slower twist barrels than the military rounds. Though, a 1-in-9 twist SHOULD stabilize even M855...the real reason the military went to 1-in-7 twist was for the M856 (tracer), which at 63.7 grains is slightly heavier than the M855, but is also a bit longer, too. It wouldn't have stabilized properly in the old M16A1 1-in-12 twist barrels. I seem to remember going to M16 refresher training many years ago and them telling us if we had to use the "new" ammo out of the old rifles, that it wouldn't be very accurate past 100 meters, max. However, the old M193 55 grain ammo, would shoot acceptably well out of the new M16A2 rifles.

Any long time rifle shooter will confirm this phenomenon.

C-dub wrote:

wharvey wrote:Learned about rate of twist shooting black powder. 50cal guns designed for round ball have a 1 in 66 twist. Round ball will be accurate but conicals spray. That's why modern black powder guns don't shoot RB worth anything.

1:6 or 1:66? Typo I hope.

Nope, no typo. Although using my phone it is likely there are some.

Rifles, like Lyman's Great Plains, which was designed for round ball used a 66 inch twist rate. A Navy Arms Hawkin I use to have had a 24 inch twist. Had to shoot mini or maxi balls, (conical), if I wanted to hit anything past 25 yards. With the brass butt plate it would kick like a mule. Sold it and got a round ball gun. Much more pleasant to shoot.

The longer the bullet the faster the needed twist rate. The caliber also makes a difference. The twist rates I mention was for a 50 cal.