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Not real sure where to post this-- so I'm sticking it here.

I've been reading a lot about the possibilities of the upcoming 08 elections, and I've read a lot about the candidates' voting records etc. A lot of where my vote is going will definitely depend on where the candidate stands on issues relating to our 2nd amendment rights.

Here's my question:

What exactly is wrong about having background checks at gunshows? We get background checks for other firearms purchases, so what's the problem with gunshows? I've never had the opportunity to go to a gunshow, so I'm not really sure how they work. It seems I'm always out of town!!

Now don't get me wrong! I'm not saying that I'm for them, but I just don't understand what is wrong with a background check at a gunshow, when we get background checks at the gun shop.

Someone help me out here...

What really gives the Anti's heartburn is the non-FFL transactions that take place at gunshows.
They want EVERY transaction recorded and documented.
You can guess why.

They want EVERY transaction recorded and documented

That is my biggest problem with a background check right there because as a CHL holder the background check is easy it's the documentation of my gun purchases that I hate.

MrDrummy;

Background checks are required at gun shows. Firearm transactions at gun shows are required to follow all local, state and federal regulations.

There is no "Gun Show Loophole". That is a term made up by the anti's to dupe folks into thinking that there is some exception to law that makes it easier to purchase a firearm at a gun show.

The anti's have also done a pretty good job of convincing people that gun shows are a significant source for firearms used by violent criminals. This is a lie. Less than 2% of firearms owned by criminals (note I said owned, not used in a crime) came from gun shows. Most of these were not purchased by the criminal, but by a friend or family member. This is called a "straw purchase" and is already against the law.

The true intent and purpose of legislation to "close the gun show loophole" is to shut down all gun shows.

There is more on this subject here

MrDrummy wrote:What exactly is wrong about having background checks at gunshows?

The problem is the way these proposed statutes are written, two guys standing by the back of a pickup truck in a parking lot constitutes a gun show.

They also have measures like requiring the show itself to be registered in advance, and the show operators have to take names of attendees and forward them to some government agency.

- Jim

MrDrummy wrote: What exactly is wrong about having background checks at gunshows? We get background checks for other firearms purchases, so what's the problem with gunshows? I've never had the opportunity to go to a gunshow, so I'm not really sure how they work.
........
but I just don't understand what is wrong with a background check at a gunshow, when we get background checks at the gun shop.

Someone help me out here...

You don't get background checks with a CHL in Texas. You show your license, they still fill out the form, but since you have already gone through the background checks, you're clear to buy and walk.

There are Friend to friend sales at some shows. They do not require a background check. That's what they are claiming as a loop hole.
FFL holders still call in background checks as they are required to do.

The trick to all this, as I see it, is they either want FTF stopped, or they want people without FFLs must call in. As the NICS background system stands, one must be an FFL to use it. So, saying everyone must use it, excludes FTF sales, by default.

Which only means they go to the parking lots. Still legal in Texas, and many other states.

seamusTX wrote:

MrDrummy wrote:What exactly is wrong about having background checks at gunshows?

The problem is the way these proposed statutes are written, two guys standing by the back of a pickup truck in a parking lot constitutes a gun show.


- Jim

No, it does not go that far. This is the text SECTION 1. Section 46.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subdivisions (17) and (18) to read as follows:
(17) "Gun show" means a place other than a permanent
retail store, including a driveway, sidewalk or walkway, parking
lot, or other parking area, or an event at which:
(A) three or more individuals assemble to display
firearms or firearm components to the public; and
(B) a fee is charged for the privilege of
displaying the firearms or firearm components or a fee is charged
for admission to the area where the firearms or components are
displayed.

When we argue against this bill we need to NOT do what the anti's do, and that is be less than accurate to bolster our argument.

MrDrummy wrote: What exactly is wrong about having background checks at gunshows? We get background checks for other firearms purchases, so what's the problem with gunshows? I've never had the opportunity to go to a gunshow, so I'm not really sure how they work. It seems I'm always out of town!!

Now don't get me wrong! I'm not saying that I'm for them, but I just don't understand what is wrong with a background check at a gunshow, when we get background checks at the gun shop.

Someone help me out here...

As someone else explained, background checks are required at gun shows.

If you buy from a licensed dealer that dealer must comply with federal law, performing a background check unless you have a CHL. That is just like anywhere else.

If you buy from an individual who is not licensed, then it is handled like any other sale that does not go thru a dealer. You pay him, get your purchase and go on your merry way. That is just like if I sold you one of my guns face to face. No background check required.

Under the proposed law, if I had a gun for sale and took it to a gun show, and you wanted to buy it, we would have to find a dealer willing to allow us to use his NICS number to call and run a background, and I would have to make a record of the sale.

However, we could leave the show, go down the street and complete the transaction without doing all of that.

IMO, the anti's want all gun purchases to have checks, and they are starting at gun shows.

Thank you txi.
This clears up a lot for me. I know I am nieve when it comes to trying to think like an anti.
It all makes sence that starting at the gun shows will let them later ask for "common sence" laws that require a record of every sale including FTF. This is defacto registration.

MrDummy, others have already explained the most important part: that there is no "gun show loophole", and every law applies for gun show sales that apply for any sale.

If I may gently submit an opinion, I suggest that you are approaching such questions from the wrong angle. Instead of asking,"What would really be so bad about (fill in the blank...)?", you should be asking, "What would (fill in the blank) accomplish? And at what price?"

Every single piece of anti-gun legislation has passed when enough people took the attitude of, "Well, what would be so wrong with that? It sounds reasonable to me."

Instead of asking "Why wouldn't this be okay?", demand to know, "Why would this be okay?"

The former is asking to be persuaded. The latter is demanding proof.

Of course, my preferred tactic is to turn the table completely. Instead of asking why background checks at gun shows wouldn't be okay, I'll ask why any background check, paperwork, dealer licensing, etc., is okay. And my answer is: they're not.

Kevin

KBCraig wrote:Of course, my preferred tactic is to turn the table completely. Instead of asking why background checks at gun shows wouldn't be okay, I'll ask why any background check, paperwork, dealer licensing, etc., is okay. And my answer is: they're not. Kevin

And I am in complete agreement here.

I have put up with the forms, the NICS check (pre-CHL), and all that hoopla over and over because some business had a firearm I wanted.

However, each one of those forms contains:
Full name
Address
Place of birth
Social Security # (sometimes - I leave this blank now)
Driver's License #
CHL #
Age
Weight
Height

In short, enough information to begin falsifying an identity, stealing and ruining your reputation, and causing you years of hassle, frustration, and legal hoopla, not to mention lost money, time, and property.

Gun stores have been broken into in the past, and almost assuredly will be again. Do remember that, per ATF regulations, these forms MUST be kept for a designated period of time.

Even assuming the most benign intentions of the government (which I don't assume in the slightest), would YOU be comfortable with this information falling into the hands of a burglar?

you forgot blood type and DNA sample of first born

Thane, you make a great argument.

It's a hard thing for sure, this whole NICS check.

It seems to me that some of us feel that it's an invasion of our privacy or a overstepping of bounds, and I do tend to agree--mostly. I mean, most people that I talk to feel that any regulation of any thing 'gun' is wrong. There's got to be a middle ground, right? Somewhere? No?

I don't know if it helps keep guns out of the hands of felons or not, but it surely has to make it just a little bit harder, right? That's another thought that goes through my mind. I don't like the thought of a violent offender, be it guy or gal, walking out of prison and being able to pick up a gun at the local gun shop, or from a private individual. I really don't.

At this point, I think that there should be offenses that, if committed, forfeit your right to own a firearm. I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise... I have a hard time linking up one thing to another. Basically its hard for me to think along 'anti' lines, and how they weasel their ways into taking our guns away.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of this, and talking/listening/reading a lot of the things that you guys say is really stretching my brain all kinds of new ways. That's what we're here for, right? Trying to get the cobwebs out of my head! Keep the dustbusters comin'!

If a person is not to be trusted with the basic rights afforded to all citizens, why is that person walking around free?

The violent criminal you are worried about purchasing a firearm from an individual will more likely break into your home, car or office and steal one than purchase one. If he purchases one, it will be one that someone else has stolen.

Gun control laws only affect us, the law abiding citizens. Violent criminals do not care what the laws state. They will do what they will do. All the money use in regulating firearms, in supporting the BATFE would be better used to build stronger families and rebuild the inner cities. (actually it would be better used in my back pocket, but that is a topic for another day).

Gun control laws do not work.

Your original question was about the gun shows. If the anti's succeed in closing gun shows, they will have struck a very damaging blow against the gun culture.

jrosto wrote:If a person is not to be trusted with the basic rights afforded to all citizens, why is that person walking around free?

That pretty much says it all.

The Constitution is a bit too weak on firearms rights for my tastes. I prefer a bolder statement, like the Atlanta Declaration by L. Neil Smith.

It is usually shortened to the opening line, but the rest of it is good reading.

Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.