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In another thread, I saw this:

...Sounds like a good time to remember that Cooper's Four Rules apply 100% of the time...

RULE 3: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

Rather than hijack that thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

The four rules are what I teach without hesitation to new shooters. They are absolutely correct for anyone who is of a defensive mindset or may ever need to be. They are the perfect starting point and I freely acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of shooters have no need to ever grow past that starting point.

However, I never see it acknowledged that they were solely designed around combat shooting and training for combat shooting and codified by a man who viewed handguns as weapons, period, full stop. In fact, there's a nearby thread with 120 posts and not one person who posted there has thought deeply enough into the topic to realize that maybe, just maybe, there are times when firearms are used for something other than combat or training for combat.

Precision pistol shooting is completely different.

You align iron sights on the target differently. You hold the gun differently. And for most of those games, Rule 3 sure as heck DOES NOT apply. If you're going to win anything major on the pistol line at Camp Perry at any time in the future, you sure as heck will put that finger on the trigger LONG before the sights are on the target. Beyond NRA Conventional Pistol, if you shoot any of the ISSF games that can get you to a World Cup or the Olympics then the same thing is true. Fingers, quite properly, go on triggers long before the sights are on target. I don't know a single high-level coach for Conventional Pistol or for (say) Free Pistol who doesn't teach that the occasional early shot that hits the ground halfway to the target or the occasional early shot that goes completely over the target isn't simply a part of the learning process. It's no big deal; it's part of the game and part of the learning process. There are limits, of course; put a round through the firing table at a Conventional Pistol match and you'll quite likely be asked to leave. :-)

I guess this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. Far too many people tend to think their little world is the whole world and never give any consideration to the notion that there are other worlds out there where things are correctly done in a different way.

Thus, these infinite re-statements of Rule 3 as Unchallengeable Holy Writ From On High eventually begin to grate on the nerves of people with a little broader range of experience.

Just my thoughts. Nomex on. Flame away.

If you put your finger on the trigger, your sights are on a target. It may not be the target you intend but like they say. You shot it, you bought it.

recaffeination wrote:If you put your finger on the trigger, your sights are on a target. It may not be the target you intend but like they say. You shot it, you bought it.

Now, that's an insightful way to look at it. Thanks.

I don't know a thing about that type of competition shooting, but if it requires violating Rule 3 I'll NEVER compete in it. An errant shot into the ground is "ok"? That's frightening.

You claim the 4 rules are "only" for combat shooting, and I strongly disagree. I learned same 4 rules (plus more) in hunter safety. Same 4 rules (plus more) are integral to rules at EVERY shooting range I've ever used (public, private, and tax-payer funded/public safety/law enforcement training). The same 4 rules (and more) apply to every level of shooting I've ever experienced other than this particular type of competition shooting you mention.

The REASON these 4 rules are integral and not open to variance is because utilizing them effectively requires they become ingrained/instinctual/second nature - precisely so they are NOT overlooked when your conscious mind drifts off.

benenglishtx wrote:

recaffeination wrote:If you put your finger on the trigger, your sights are on a target. It may not be the target you intend but like they say. You shot it, you bought it.

Now, that's an insightful way to look at it. Thanks.

A-R wrote:

benenglishtx wrote:

recaffeination wrote:If you put your finger on the trigger, your sights are on a target. It may not be the target you intend but like they say. You shot it, you bought it.

Now, that's an insightful way to look at it. Thanks.

In that case, wouldn't we refer to rule #2 and then #4 and if they are okay, then we're good to go, right?

benenglishtx wrote:I guess this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. Far too many people tend to think their little world is the whole world and never give any consideration to the notion that there are other worlds out there where things are correctly done in a different way.

Some shotgunners point guns at their own toes. That doesn't make it a good idea. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=59306" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the subject of Jeff Cooper and competition, may I conclude you never heard of IPSC?

A-R wrote:I don't know a thing about that type of competition shooting, but if it requires violating Rule 3 I'll NEVER compete in it. An errant shot into the ground is "ok"? That's frightening.

After a week of rain in Houston's mud/sludge it might be "ok" but not in my mind.
You're up here where I am in Central TX
Anyone living in Central TX where the "ground" is all *rock* knows not to drop anything on the "rock" (ground) you don't want bouncing/ricocheting/fragmenting and spraying everywhere.

RPB wrote:

A-R wrote:I don't know a thing about that type of competition shooting, but if it requires violating Rule 3 I'll NEVER compete in it. An errant shot into the ground is "ok"? That's frightening.

After a week of rain in Houston's mud/sludge it might be "ok" but not in my mind.
You're up here where I am in Central TX
Anyone living in Central TX where the "ground" is all *rock* knows not to drop anything on the "rock" (ground) you don't want bouncing/ricocheting/fragmenting and spraying everywhere.

They sound like the kind of people whose idea of celebrating is firing their guns in the air.

C-dub wrote:In that case, wouldn't we refer to rule #2 and then #4 and if they are okay, then we're good to go, right?

Pretty much. On formal ranges of the sort I have in mind, 2 and 4 are redundant and only philosophically applicable, anyway.

"Never point at anything you're not willing to destroy" is pretty meaningless in this context. No one is actually willing to destroy a million-dollar rapid-fire pistol bay nor any part of it. And with the .22LRs used in competition, pretty much the only thing that *could* be destroyed, no matter where the shot goes forward of the firing line, would be the signal lights...and that's not that big a deal.

As for "Be sure of your target", that's also redundant. If we accept recaffeination's re-definition of target in this context, then there can't be any harm so there won't be any foul in ISSF venues. Neither smooth concrete floors nor perfectly manicured grass tend to cause ricochets to come back to the line.

Where Conventional Pistol is concerned, RPB has a point. At outdoor ranges, an early shot into the ground after "The line is ready" can be forgiven but doing it multiple times, during a match, into rocky ground will get you an invitiation to pack up for the day. Early in the training cycle of a new shooter, though, coaches must be a good deal more forgiving. If a new Conventional Pistol shooter isn't occasionally letting one go prematurely, then he's just not getting the hang of the shot process.

tacticool wrote:Some shotgunners point guns at their own toes. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Agreed 100%. However, I was (1) talking about precision pistol shooting and (2) don't know of any precision pistol shooting discipline where breaking the 180 degree plane, such as by pointing your muzzle at your toes or at the competitor next to you, would be tolerated.

tacticool wrote:On the subject of Jeff Cooper and competition, may I conclude you never heard of IPSC?

I've heard of it, remember the formation, remember Coopers writings on the subject (plenty of his stuff resides on my bookshelves) and *distinctly* remember how deeply disgusted he became with the rise of gamesmanship in IPSC. Cooper believed pistols were martial tools and wrote more than one piece decrying the extent to which shooters would discount sound tactical thought and utilize stupidly complex equipment in the pursuit of, in his words, "a little cup" or other trophy for winning a shooting match.

He codifed those rules in a martial context. They apply well to any games even loosely based on that premise. They also apply beautifully, as A-R pointed out, to hunting situations.

But review the video of the last Olympic finals in Women's Sport Pistol, Men's 50M Pistol, Men's Rapid Fire Pistol, or either Air Pistol event. Or just go stand behind the line and carefully watch the pistol shooters who win at our own National Championships at Camp Perry.

Fingers will be on triggers long before sights are on targets and in those contexts that's exactly the right way for competitors to conduct themselves.

In principal, I agree with you. IMO, the four gun safety rules were designed to prevent people from [accidently] shooting things/people that they did not intend to shoot. I don't think anyone ever said that they were "holy" rules.
As with all kind of rules, some amount of rational thought should apply to their application.

benenglishtx wrote:I don't know a single high-level coach for Conventional Pistol or for (say) Free Pistol who doesn't teach that the occasional early shot that hits the ground halfway to the target or the occasional early shot that goes completely over the target isn't simply a part of the learning process. It's no big deal; it's part of the game and part of the learning process.

I was a member of a semi-private outdoor range that was way out on the country, but happened to be about a mile from a large business. People hitting the ground and ricocheting over the backstop, or shooting over the backstop, allegedly hit the large business's building and caused a lawsuit that dragged on for two and a half years, caused a small (range) business to be shut down from a court order while awaiting trial, and basically put the range out of business. It never opened again.

I have never been to a indoor range that did not have bullet holes all over the ceiling.

Yeah, I think rounds being in the vicinity of the target is pretty darn important.

benenglishtx wrote:I guess this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. Far too many people tend to think their little world is the whole world and never give any consideration to the notion that there are other worlds out there where things are correctly done in a different way.

Thus, these infinite re-statements of Rule 3 as Unchallengeable Holy Writ From On High eventually begin to grate on the nerves of people with a little broader range of experience.

With all due respect, it is only those with a narrow range of experience who can ignore fundamental safety rules, and only because they handle firearms in extremely controlled environments where it's "safe" to ignore the rules. Those of us who carry on the street, afield while hunting, to protect livestock, and in other real world environments cannot afford to get sloppy. The square range is a very different environment than the 8th floor of an office building, with rather different consequences for those who cut corners on safety.