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Whenever the subject of "hi capacity" mags comes up, the argument from pro-gunners is that smaller mags won't limit a mass killer's capabilities. They'll simply carry more mags and change them.

If that's true (and I'm not saying it is), then wouldn't the same apply to us good guys? What's the problem with having to carry more mags? IOW, are we arguing the wrong thing?

Now I'll sit back and watch y'all discuss.

Not everyone has the skills, coordination, etc. to calmly and effectively make efficient mag changes in the heat of the moment. Also, we would acting in a defensive and reactive manner - that would seem to put you at a disadvantage, especially against multiple attackers/threats.

Bad guy determines the time, place, and manner of the violence. He can pre-plan and show up fully stocked with ten 30-round mags or thirty 10-round mags.

Good guy must react/respond to a lethal threat begun at the time, place, manner of the bad guy's choosing - using only the defensive tools he carries with him daily (his "EDC"). If that EDC is a gun with one spare mag (20 rounds if limited by mag capacity laws) and he needs 21 rounds to stop the threat, then he is up the proverbial creek. But in a free state, he can fit 35 rounds (in two full capacity mags) in the same space as the 20 rounds in two arbitrarily limited capacity mags.

As we all know, magazine capacity AIN'T THE ISSUE HERE. It's another attempt to continue to whittle away at our Constitutional RIGHTS (not laws that a government can influence), until none are left. They are going for it all; we should give them NOTHING. There is NO "reasonable" compromise here....

Gun grabbers would force us to have no-mags rifles, that is SKS is the best you can have, wait a sec, real ammo-clip would be banned too.
So we are left with bolt action rifles with fixed bottom plate.

I mean those real clips:

baldeagle wrote:Whenever the subject of "hi capacity" mags comes up, the argument from pro-gunners is that smaller mags won't limit a mass killer's capabilities. They'll simply carry more mags and change them.

If that's true (and I'm not saying it is), then wouldn't the same apply to us good guys? What's the problem with having to carry more mags? IOW, are we arguing the wrong thing?

Now I'll sit back and watch y'all discuss.

Try to explain the stupidity of magazine limits to a person who has never had any firearm related self defense training is difficult as they don't recognize the difference in an active shooter situation and a self defense situation. On the mass murderer side of an active shooter situation the limiting factor is target availability. The shooter spends most of his time searching for targets. He has plenty of time for magazine changes because he's facing unarmed people, the majority of whom will not fight back. The shooter at Newtown has been reported to have made multiple magazine changes.The shooter at Virginia Tech made use of 10 round magazines for one of his pistols. On the other side we have the "good guy"/self defense side of the equation. Magazine changes are much different when you have someone shooting at you. When a bad guy is trying to kill a bad magazine change can have deadly consequences. More rounds in your magazine means more chances of putting down the threat before having to deal with a magazine change.

baldeagle wrote:Whenever the subject of "hi capacity" mags comes up, the argument from pro-gunners is that smaller mags won't limit a mass killer's capabilities. They'll simply carry more mags and change them.

If that's true (and I'm not saying it is), then wouldn't the same apply to us good guys? What's the problem with having to carry more mags? IOW, are we arguing the wrong thing?

Now I'll sit back and watch y'all discuss.

If you're the aggressor in a mass shooting, you can reload at your leisure because nobody's fighting back (and you can bring "hi-cap" mags in the first place, too). But if you're the defender, milliseconds can count and you'll be under tremendous stress. If you need to reload, it could be easy to buckle under pressure and miss the magwell, drop the magazine, or even have trouble getting it out of its holster.

The aggressor could rock a bag full of revolvers and still have the upper hand.

I don't want to be bullet limited in this situation

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjpr1UdPj8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bottom line is no one has the right to tell me what I can own regarding firearms (within limits please let’s not go the chemical weapons argument here)

The purpose of the 2A wasn't hunting or home defense or defense against an active shooter in a theater. It is to keep the government from being over bearing on the citizenry. A government that knows it's people are armed with close to equal weapons thinks twice before getting millions of Americans worked up to the point of revolution. It keeps the governmet PEOPLE control rather than GOVERNMENT coontrol.

Citizens do not have LAWS rockets or tanks. But there are 300,000,000 firearms owned by 180-200 million citizens. Stack that against a 4 million man army, many of whom may desert in a revolution and Senators, Congressman, and the president tread lightly.

THAT is the reason I want 60 round mags, suppressors, high powered scopes, etc. All of which work well for deer hunting. (ok maybe I don't need a 60 round mag for hunting).

But the argument always goes in the direction of WHY DO YOU NEED THAT. And the answer is simple, to keep my government in check.
The real question is will limiting mag size stop horrible crimes? It will not. Nut jobs don't follow laws and to think you'll stop them with ink on paper is foolish.

Moby wrote:The real question is will limiting mag size stop horrible crimes? It will not. Nut jobs don't follow laws and to think you'll stop them with ink on paper is foolish.

I disagree.........it is not foolish.......
It is INSANE!

baldeagle wrote:Whenever the subject of "hi capacity" mags comes up, the argument from pro-gunners is that smaller mags won't limit a mass killer's capabilities. They'll simply carry more mags and change them.

If that's true (and I'm not saying it is), then wouldn't the same apply to us good guys? What's the problem with having to carry more mags? IOW, are we arguing the wrong thing?

Now I'll sit back and watch y'all discuss.

Obviously you weren't born with only 1 hand, but what if one of yours is tied up/busy/injured?
When you are faced with 3 bad guys, like Ramon Castillo was ( got shot 4 bullets. 6 holes including exits) would you want to run around as he did getting 3 different lower capacity guns? You sure there's time to do that?

Prokop Lumber in Houston was robbed by 5 armed men while I was in it once. (Store now closed)

King David only "NEEDED" one stone, but he was allowed spares, so no one should limit my un-needed spares

The way I see it (and it's already been said above in many different ways), magazine size means absolutely nothing in a mass shooting scenario, but means everything to me in my home.

Limiting magazine capacity is not going to slow down a mass shooter in any significant way. The math is still the same: 1x30 = 3x10. The active shooter only adds maybe 6 seconds total time to reload two magazines, the law is minutes away, and DHS has trained you to cower and hide. It didn't make any difference in Columbine when one of the shooters most favored weapons was a Hi-point 995. He used it with thirteen 10-round magazines which he fired a total of 96 times.

Where do those few seconds of reloading matter? They matter in my house when the bad men are coming through the door. In there, those seconds are life and death and I don't want it to be a fair fight. They already have the element of surprise and I need every unfair advantage I can get so that I can live and protect my family. And part of that means continuing to fire at them with my 30 round mag AR-15 while they are out of rounds.

What's the problem with your Constitutional rights not being infringed upon?

BG in active shooter scenario is probably in a gun free environment. Therefore no one is shooting at him. This makes mag changes much easier and relatively effective for the BG.

If I am in a shooting, I didn't initiate it, but rather am responding to either a BG bullet sponge who attacked me or multiple attackers. With people shooting at me, it will be much more difficult to do mag changes and the 6-10 seconds it takes me literally might be the difference between life and death.