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Just as the title says...

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/06/firearm ... z2WfI0Dbiq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Discuss ...

Medic - great article, and more than a few "no way" moments while reading it. It amazes me what the human body is capable of withstanding.

Thanks for posting it

This will get a good argument going.

My take away...Never give up and carry more ammo!

I'm currently reading a book about the "Battle of the Bulge". The wounds received by soldiers on both sides were horrifying. The rifles back then were chambered in .30-06 and 7.92x57mm, both very potent rounds. Granted that they were FMJ, but still more powerful than any handgun rounds. There were far more wounded than were immediately killed, minus those caught in artillery barrages. Many who did die during the battle died later from their wounds due to lack of sufficient medical care. Some soldiers performed incredible deeds despite their wounds.

It would seem to me that this speaks to one of the themes of this forum: shoot to stop, not to kill. If it only takes one hit, good. If it takes more, then that is what one must do to protect themselves.

This statement emphasizes how important the mind is.

WWII also provides an ultimate proof of the concept of psychological stopping power. On autopsy, from one to three percent of deceased soldiers were determined not to have been wounded at all. They had apparently died just from the effects of psychological stress.

If you're in a firefight, assume you will be hit. Mentally accept that fact and plan how to continue the fight until you win. Being shot should make you angry rather than fearful and more determined to defeat your adversary so that you can survive. In the end, survival is the goal. Anything that contributes to that is beneficial to the outcome.

Edit: Apparently the FBI has recognized this fact.

“I was told some years ago that FBI had a training program of some manner, one focus of which was ‘just because you’re shot doesn’t mean you’re dead.’ It was an effort to counteract by training the natural response to being hit, which is to collapse regardless of whether the wound is physically incapacitating or not.”

Excellent article. I liked this paragraph, which TOO many people forget their physics:

“Knock-down” power is a term also sometimes used to describe a firearm’s capacity to incapacitate an attacker. But, we know that no firearm has literal “knock down” power. Given Newton’s Law about “equal and opposite reaction”, if a firearm had power enough to knock someone down, discharging it would generate a recoil which would knock down the person firing it.

I have personally carried on a conversation with a patient who had taken a 9mm bullet right through his heart. This conversation took place while he was laying on the gurney in our trauma room, being prepped to go upstairs for surgery to save his life. He wasn't even bleeding dramatically because he was suffering a pericardial tamponade. That's where the two holes in the pericardium (the tough elastic membrane enclosing the heart) seal up and the heart bleeds into the space between the pericardium and the heart muscle itself, eventually squeezing the heart enough to make it stop pumping. Incidentally, he also had a fractured right humerus from another bullet strike. He was quite alert and oriented to time and place.....and considerably bummed out because he knew that the outcome was going to be eventually deleterious to his personal freedom to move about in public.

His literal partner in crime (they had an epic fail while trying to rob a liquor store with an armed cashier) was hit once in the chest, right smack in the left pectoral muscle, and that bullet stopped when it hit his rib and failed to even penetrate into the chest cavity. That bullet was slowed down because he saw that he was about to be shot and he put his crossed forearms up in front of himself in a futile gesture to make reality go away. The bullet pierced both forearms and broke one of them before hitting him in the chest, possibly saving his life. I helped to dig that bullet out of him for the po-po.

Both crooks, in their 20s, had entered the liquor store waving .38s around. The clerk had a Beretta 9mm. He was willing to shoot first. Apparently, they were not. Couple of losers. They should have stayed home and watched Sesame Street.

His thesis about head shots is spot on. The head is way too small and mobile to be a deliberate target. If you want true knockdown power then a '58 Buick moving about 45 miles per hour is the weapon of choice. For stopping power a 105mm howitzer will fill the bill. To read more on this subject look for Marshall and Sanow's books on stopping power.

Good article. It backs up what we teach in our classes. Thanks for posting.

The Annoyed Man wrote: They should have stayed home and watched Sesame Street.

Nope, that would have been too tough for them to comprehend.

Nice article but it is nothing that hasn't been known for a while. You stop firing when the threat stops. It doesn't matter if it's a 12 gauge .22, .45 or 9mm. I will say after talking to several vets who saw action in Iraq and Afghanistan that 9mm ball is a horrible stopper! Which we already know but I heard several say the m9 with 124 grain ball was a good door stop or paper weight. One such vet told me a whole mag was dumped at an attacker and 9 rounds made contact with the assailant. It took several minutes for the man to stop firing and bleed out before the fight was over.

Any FMJ ammo is generally going to cause less damage and have more penetration than JHP ammo. The stories from those vets don't surprise me.

gthaustex wrote:Any FMJ ammo is generally going to cause less damage and have more penetration than JHP ammo. The stories from those vets don't surprise me.

I remember stories about our guys fighting in Somalia back in the early 90s. Many of the bad guys there didn't get a lot to eat, and the GIs called them "skinnies". The 5.56mm ball ammo tended to zip right through them if it didn't contact bone. Thus they had a lot of little holes in them and would keep coming even though they very possibly died later from blood loss. There are just so many variables.

Recall the video I posted about a year ago by a physician discussing handgun stopping power.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57826

Good article and good thoughts....thanks!

The article also covers instances where multiple direct hits by the .45 ACP failed to stop the attacker. Here's a note from "War baby! Vol. 1" by Larry Ruth, which is the history of the M1 Carbine.

"When in 1941, the Army was looking to replace the M1911 pistol with the M1 Carbine, speaking of the pistol, the ARMY R&D published the following, "This weapon (the M1911) was primarily for defensive purposes since its effective range is limited to not more than 25 yards, except when handled by an expert. Its ineffectiveness was well proven by the amazingly small number of casualties it inflicted upon enemy troops during WWI as revealed by post-war inspection of German casualty lists and hospital records.”

I don't know for sure if it was the range it was fired at, or the round itself, but with all the close up trench warfare in WWI, it could be either or a combination of both.