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At our workplace safety and health day, our security folks had their firearms training simulator for people to use. This has a large (8' x 8') screen on which is projected your scenario. The actors have lines they speak and your shots produce loud reports (and sounds of empty cases tingling on the concrete). You have a real pistol outfitted with a laser (Sig P239 in my case). You're asked to verbalize and roll play along, but the video is still going to do what it is going to do. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to move around.

I will tell you about the scenarios in a minute, but I learned a really important thing for defensive shooting that I would not have have learned in any of the other IDPA or IPSC or practice shooting that I do. When faced with a developing shoot scenario, I usually had the gun up, sights on target before I had to make the committment to fire. But, when faced with a surprise threat with a gun, I began shooting regardless of sight alignment and regardless of what was beyond my threat. When I was faced with a distant shot at a gun wielding threat, I began firing first and only then did I decide to line the sights up for real hits. In IDPA or IPSC, it would have been a simple matter to slow down until I got the right sight alignment to get the hits. Somehow, that training on static cardboard targets was not triggered when faced with someone trying to shoot me.

The Scenarios
The first scenario was searching around a house that had called in a burgular alarm. My partner went around to the right and I went around to the left. As I cleared a corner, I saw the dark outline of a man with a weapon in his hand clearly hugging the wall waiting to ambush my partner as she came around the corner. I yelled "GUN" and alerted my partner to the situation and told the actor to drop the weapon. Being a movie, he just turned and walked toward me. As he came into the light, I could see he was holding an ax, not a gun. I corrected my call to my partner, but he kept walking toward me no matter what I said. At about 21 feet, he broke into a run at me and I unloaded aobut six rounds which all were good hits. My partner was directly in line with the shooting, but wasn't hit since all hits were absorbed by the bad guy. The trainer said not to worry about that because of my verbalization, my partner would have repositioned. Still, that could have been a bad day.

Scenario two is a traffic stop. Two occupants and the woman driver gets out and starts a rant by the car door about being pulled over again, not fair, blah, blah, blah. I tell her to calm down as she just gets herself all spun up. She says "that's it, I've had it" and bends over into the open car window at the same time her partner gets out low on the passenger side. Gun drawn I demand to see hands which happen to be holding a gun. Five shots on her and it's time to transition to her passenger who is now standing at the front of the car shooting at me exposing only his head and upper torso. A miss and head shot are the result of the quick transition.

I remember thinking about the puny single-stack magazine in the Sig (and how similar it is to my 1911) and how comforting the 14 rounds of .40 in my compact Glock 23 would have been in such a situation.

The final scenario is a possible drug buy. My partner and I roll up on two motorcycles and a pedestrian. The pedestrian runs off straight ahead about 25 yards into some trees. My partner takes the left cyclist off screen left leaving me to deal with biker #2. Requests for a show of hands result in the drawing of a gun from about 10 feet. I unload 6-8 shots at him and while I'm shooting him, the pedestrian steps out from the trees with a gun shooting at me from around 30 yards. I immediately transition to him with the same cadence with the first shots missing him by feet over his shoulder. Something told me I needed to get on my sights and I finally got a fatal hit in, but the computer said I'd "been assaulted". (I think that means I've been shot).

These concepts are so easy to talk about and imagine in our minds, but the ability to immerse yourself into the sounds and dynamics of the situation is really a test of how you'll react. In IDPA, I'd never just throw rounds at a target until I decided to settle in on my sights, yet in a real fight at distance, that is exactly what I did. I do not know if I would be able to train myself to hold my fire until I had an acceptable sight picture in these cases of surprise targets that are immediate threats or not, but I wish I could find out....

If you currently shoot paper targets on a square public range, I encourage you to add the dynamics of drawing, moving, multiple shots on target, multiple targets, different shootin positions and different shot challenges that IDPA offers. If you do IDPA, I encourage you to seek force-on-force or other realistic simulation. Knowing your limits (and bad habbits) is a good thing when dealing with a life and death situation.

GH

I wish simulators like that were available to the public.

propellerhead wrote:I wish simulators like that were available to the public.

Group buy?

How much is this thing? I am in for a group buy.

Oh, does the gun recoil?

GlockenHammer wrote:

propellerhead wrote:I wish simulators like that were available to the public.

Group buy?

I have also worked with them a lot over the years. They are pretty expensive, but are also invaluable in training. I never realized how hard it can be to hit a moving target until I used one (Dad was not into hunting when I was a kid, so not a lot of chance to practice there). Yes the firearms do recoil and there are many different scenarios. I am on my way to work this morning, but when I get back I will try to go over a few.

I would love the chance to train on something like this!

I smell a business opp.

I don't remember this one recoiling. I do remember the long double action trigger of the Sig which was the same every time. When I was handed the gun, I was told it was a real gun, don't wave it around, etc. I checked the mag (empty) and he told me to not rack the slide before I did so (obviously noting I was checking it for clear).

Perhaps there are higher quality versions which do have some sort of blowback or recoil incorporated.

I've never priced this sort of item (I expect it would be a stretch for a group buy), but perhaps we could find an organization that has one that might be willing to bring it to our Forum day in September.... I'll see what I can do.

GH

GlockenHammer wrote:I've never priced this sort of item (I expect it would be a stretch for a group buy), but perhaps we could find an organization that has one that might be willing to bring it to our Forum day in September.... I'll see what I can do.

That would be a lot of fun

Thanks for sharing your experience in the simulator. The only experience I have in a "shoot house" setup was at Front Sight. I too had a great time during the training and learned a great deal.

The shoot house is 360 degrees with good, bad, kids, colorful loud language and neighbors. I found that my shots were accurate, but on EVERY one of them I wasted the time to take a head shot.....I don't know why when most of them offered a very clear shot to COM. I have a feeling that a gun or clothing covering the COM distracted me because it was not cardboard brown! This is definitely not something I do in an IDPA setting. I am sure that this could/would get me killed in real life. I have tried to drain that reaction out of my system with practice. I can say that I was able to look at my sights with the exception of targets directly in front of me.

I also learned the true value of a Tac-load during a lull when proper cover is available. I don't know if I would do it under life or death pressure, but it is a great tool to practice.

Thanks again for sharing.......really neat.
Jason

I got to do this about a year ago. Like GlockenHammer said, it was a valuable experience.

Because the scenarios were designed for law enforcement training, you were presumed to be in uniform, open carry. In my first scenario, I walked into a crowded resturant to discover an armed robbery in progress. I was the immediate focus of the robber's attention, which resulted very quickly in a shootout. If I'd been a civilian CHL, I could have blended in with the crowd, and taken my time deciding what (if anything) to do. Another scenario involved approaching a suspected car thief in a parking lot. He had a very quick draw, and killed me. As a civilian CHL, I would have stayed away.

I left with a new respect for Law Enforcement. Wearing the uniform makes them a target, and their duty requires them to engage when we just don't have to. They don't get paid enough for what they do...

Scott

This sounds a lot like the sim the OC Trainers told us about at Gunsite.

Except with theirs, they shoot rubber bullets back at the trainees.

The addition of the rubber bullets raises the stakes and really brings out the freak and peek factor.

The Time Crisis games at D&B are also pretty good for increasing TOT.

Great review GlockenHammer!

I imagine the system you gentlemen are talking about is F.A.T.S. (Fire Arms Training System).

I tried it out a number of years ago, and it is an eye opener if you haven't done anything like it before.

I think the #1 thing I got out of it was how fast a situation can go bad. Like GlockenHammer said, it can go bad so fast that you don't even want to take the time to look at your sights.

I had a similar impulse to GlockenHammer. I knew I needed to get lead on target ASAP and didn't want to waste any time getting my shots off. Part of this urge is the inability to influence the action in the simulator in any way but shoot. The other part needs to be trained for. Keeping your cool, and executing a good technique quickly.

I think F.A.T.S. is great, a lot of fun, and a great training tool...but Force-on-force is more realistic.

If you get the chance, do both.

Using airsoft pistols in force-on-force training is pretty telling too. A lot of stuff that you taught yourself on a square range shows itself as useless, and capable of getting you dead.

FoF also allows you to practice attacks from anywhere on the "range" since no backstop is required. Since your opponent is also "armed" you know when you've been hit (those little suckers can sting at close range!).

Another advantage is your opponent makes counter moves to yours, not possible with the video training tools.

True, they don't recoil like a real firearm, but they do cycle the slide, so it's somewhat better then simulators that just drop the hammer and force you to use double action systems.

Try FoF sometime, it's an eye opener and will probably make you change the way you approach training...

And besides, it's cheap

txinvestigator, how much does a F.A.T.S cost?
Chas.

I've done a little research since this morning. No reply yet on cost but there's a company here in Arlington that has a great looking set up.

Would you let me know the cost too?

Cosmo 9 wrote:I've done a little research since this morning. No reply yet on cost but there's a company here in Arlington that has a great looking set up.