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Should the 2nd Amendment apply to a person who is not a US citizen? Example is the VT shooting, here legally, resident for 90 day, but not a US citizen. Why would he be entitled to the rights of the 2nd Amendment?

EASY!!!!!

Because anyone in the jurisdiction of the United States of America has to abide by the laws of the land. ie. Federal Laws. So since FEDERAL LAWS says that you can purchase a gun if you are a LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT, and a PHYSICAL RESIDENT of the state for 90 DAYS, then there is nothing legally wrong.

If you wanted to say that anyone who IS NOT a citizen of the USA should not be eligible for Amendments and Constitutional protection, Federal etc. Then you would be implying that a NON CITIZEN should then be able to be exempt from abiding by any rules, regulations and prosecutions while in the US if they commit a crime. Since those rules are only for CITIZENS. right???? Just put me on the plane and I'll face the court in my country then. That is why some people have DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY. So tomorrow you might have people driving on the left because they have friven on left for less years and takes effort

Federal Law, what about voting? If you are not a US Citizen, you cannot not vote, run for political office, why not keep guns out of non-citizen. Could be a route for terrorists and others to wage war inside the US.

They are two types of NON CITIZEN.

1. LEGAL IMMIGRANT is someone who has come into a foreign country to live there permanently, not as a tourist or visitor. You are Permanent in USA when you have a GREEN CARD. Therefore you have SOME but NOT ALL the rights of a citizen. And owning a gun is one of those rights. If you don't agree with it then try to change the law.

2. NON IMMIGRANT is someone who just comes into a foreign country temporarily as a visitor, tourist, student, etc. Most countries require some sort of visa.



NATURALIZATION is to confer upon (an alien) the rights and privileges of a citizen.

Ohhhhh, you guys are doing great!!!

I wish I wasn't ready to keel over (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), or I'd say something...

But then again you guys have said some good stuff here already...

Keep going!!!

Lucky45 wrote:They are two types of NON CITIZEN.

1. LEGAL IMMIGRANT is someone who has come into a foreign country to live there permanently, not as a tourist or visitor. You are Permanent in USA when you have a GREEN CARD. Therefore you have SOME but NOT ALL the rights of a citizen. And owning a gun is one of those rights. If you don't agree with it then try to change the law.

2. NON IMMIGRANT is someone who just comes into a foreign country temporarily as a visitor, tourist, student, etc. Most countries require some sort of visa.

NATURALIZATION is to confer upon (an alien) the rights and privileges of a citizen.

That is my point, why should some apply and others don't. Why should a legal immigrant be allowed this right of the 2nd Amendment. They can't vote and that is the only way to directly affect the political process in support of 2nd Amendment rights. If you want to live here permanently, become a US Citizen and enjoy the FULL rights of being a US Citizen.

soccerguy59 wrote:

Lucky45 wrote:They are two types of NON CITIZEN.

1. LEGAL IMMIGRANT is someone who has come into a foreign country to live there permanently, not as a tourist or visitor. You are Permanent in USA when you have a GREEN CARD. Therefore you have SOME but NOT ALL the rights of a citizen. And owning a gun is one of those rights. If you don't agree with it then try to change the law.

2. NON IMMIGRANT is someone who just comes into a foreign country temporarily as a visitor, tourist, student, etc. Most countries require some sort of visa.

NATURALIZATION is to confer upon (an alien) the rights and privileges of a citizen.

That is my point, why should some apply and others don't. Why should a legal immigrant be allowed this right of the 2nd Amendment. They can't vote and that is the only way to directly affect the political process in support of 2nd Amendment rights. If you want to live here permanently, become a US Citizen and enjoy the FULL rights of being a US Citizen.

First, they don't have rights they have privileges granted to them by the people of the U.S. . Second, since they are not citizens they cannot vote because they have no rights to have a say over. Look at CHL. We have no vote over other states laws but must obey those laws when there. We have been granted a privilege by the people of that state. It is no different for non-citizens who are "Green Card holders".

As far as them not becoming citizens I would suggest it is a good thing. First generation immigrants usually are far left and totally ignorant of why the protection of rights are important. It is good many don't ever become citizens or vote. Usually by the time their children are old enough they, at least, are American liberal and want to protect some of our rights. That is my experience anyway

I was hoping for a longer debate, but it appears to have ended. With the VT shooting and info about the shooter, I was just thinking of the 2nd Amendment and how it may need a change or if it is ok the way it exists.

IMHO, it is fine the way it exists, but I like to take an opposite stance and debate issues.

So it appears with the 150+ that have viewed the thread, ok for legal-immagrants to posess firearms but not have the ability to vote to support the 2nd Amendment.

Another question I have is, would a person be able to get a green card with a crimminal record? If so, how would the crimminal record be available to NICS?

soccerguy59 wrote:Another question I have is, would a person be able to get a green card with a crimminal record?

It's possible (anything is), but people with criminal records, mental illness, drug addiction, and contagious diseases are not allowed to immigrate to the United States.

When someone applies to immigrate, the U.S. consulate in their country checks with the authorities there. These procedures have become much stricter since 2001.

Immigrants must also be examined by a physician who is approved by the U.S.

The exception might be someone who asks for asylum and has been a political prisoner in their home country. I'm sure you realize that there are countries where it is a crime to exercise what we consider 1st Amendment rights.

If you want to see and participate in a wider discussion, see rec.guns.

- Jim

soccerguy59 wrote:I was hoping for a longer debate, but it appears to have ended. ....., but I like to take an opposite stance and debate issues....so it appears with the 150+ that have viewed the thread, ok for legal-immagrants to posess firearms

Another question I have is, would a person be able to get a green card with a crimminal record? If so, how would the crimminal record be available to NICS?

Hey soccerguy,
Most of us wish we had all the time in the world to sit around and have an intelligent conversation, but that can hardly happen with bills and all.

But I get you have an open mind and many questions. But one thing I learned in university is that one of its purpose is to teach to how to SEEK information on your own. You don't always have to wait for the "GREAT ORACLE" to posts their stuff and take it as gospel. Remember, for many years people thought the world was flat. And for many years people thought we didn't have a federal mental illness database either. SORRY!!!!!...couldn't help it. Had to.
Anyway, know the answer to your question, but I want you to have an eye opener. Have fun. Trust me on this one.
US. Citizenship and Immigration Services
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis


XIV Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. -

Lucky45,

Wow, throw me under the bus, why? You made several insulting remarks that are uncalled and out of line.

1) Inferring that I sit around on forums without any regard to my responsibilities of family and career.

2) That I am not intelligent enough to research and find answers on my own, waiting for "Master Oracle" to supply me the information.

I will take a look at the supplied link, to see if it answers the question of Non-Citizens owning firearms.

I read somewhere that all Citizens are People, but not all People are Citizens. The XIV Amendment defines that very clearly.

Lucky45,

Wow, throw me under the bus, why? You made several insulting remarks that are uncalled and out of line.

1) Inferring that I sit around on forums without any regard to my responsibilities of family and career.

2) That I am not intelligent enough to research and find answers on my own, waiting for "Master Oracle" to supply me the information.

I will take a look at the supplied link, to see if it answers the question of Non-Citizens owning firearms.

I read somewhere that all Citizens are People, but not all People are Citizens. The XIV Amendment defines that very clearly.

Whoooaaaaaa!!...horsey.

Don't be like some in this group with emotions on their sleeves. If you read my post again, you should see that I was not insulting you. I was saying that i'm sure alot of us like to have these intelligent debates that is why we check in so often, and the fact that no one is replying at the moment is because most are at work. I happen to have mobile pda, so can surf the net from time to time during the day and would be insulting myself if that was the case. So that is where the comment was directed, and since I had work to do, you could check it for yourself and gave link.
Don't always think that you are the only one with the same question or ideas. Several people viewing might be interested and just not posting that's all. Others have to be lead so they don't post until it comes down from high, then they jump in.

Some people are like me, show me in writing from the source and give a few mins, I just don't blanket agree to fall in line.

Ask and you shall recieve,
Seek and you shall find,
Knock and the doors will be open unto you

So don't infer so much, you could have ask for clarification. No offense taken either. Just tell me what you found out later. Just would have been a long converstion earlier.

Lucky45,

No offense taken, or defense, just my comprehension of the words written, my mistake.

Have a good day and better tomorrow.