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I know we've hashed similiar scenarios out before, but a discussion with a good friend of mine has left me confused. After reading the appropriate laws and pervious forum posts, I'm still confused. So, I thought I'd pose the issue here.

Below are two scenarios:

1) A CHL Holder attends a City Council Meeting (no 30.06). Not known to the CHL holder, during this meeting, the local Middle School is presented an award from the City Council. During this ceremony, the Middle School Band performs the "Star Spangled Banner".

2) A CHL Holder attends a City Council Meeting (no 30.06). The CHL Holder is attending this meeting because his Middle School child is playing in the local Middle School Band. The Band has a performance during the meeting. This event is supported by the Band Director, as he asked for volunteers to attend. No school transportation is used, students are meeting at the City Council Chambers. During this ceremony, the Middle School Band performs the "Star Spangled Banner".

Law states:

Section 46.03 (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

Ok, can the CHL holder carry in scenario #1 and/or #2? I content OK in #1, but would the CHL Holder "knowingly"/unlawfully carry in #2, a school sponsored event? The definition of "activity sponsored by a school" is throwing me for a loop.

Thoughts?

Ryan

AggieMM wrote:I know we've hashed similiar scenarios out before, but a discussion with a good friend of mine has left me confused. After reading the appropriate laws and pervious forum posts, I'm still confused. So, I thought I'd pose the issue here.

Below are two scenarios:

1) A CHL Holder attends a City Council Meeting (no 30.06). Not known to the CHL holder, during this meeting, the local Middle School is presented an award from the City Council. During this ceremony, the Middle School Band performs the "Star Spangled Banner".

2) A CHL Holder attends a City Council Meeting (no 30.06). The CHL Holder is attending this meeting because his Middle School child is playing in the local Middle School Band. The Band has a performance during the meeting. This event is supported by the Band Director, as he asked for volunteers to attend. No school transportation is used, students are meeting at the City Council Chambers. During this ceremony, the Middle School Band performs the "Star Spangled Banner".

Law states:

Section 46.03 (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

Ok, can the CHL holder carry in scenario #1 and/or #2? I content OK in #1, but would the CHL Holder "knowingly"/unlawfully carry in #2, a school sponsored event? The definition of "activity sponsored by a school" is throwing me for a loop.

Thoughts?

Ryan

very simply 46.03 doesn't apply as the school isn't "sponsoring" the event, they are a participant in the event sponsored by the city council that applies to either scenario, if the meeting isn't posted then there has been no illegal activity

JP171 wrote:very simply 46.03 doesn't apply as the school isn't "sponsoring" the event, they are a participant in the event sponsored by the city council that applies to either scenario, if the meeting isn't posted then there has been no illegal activity

Interesting, hadn't thought of it from that view point. So "sponsoring" is determined by the owner of the event.

I guess my hangup is that a parent of a kid has prior knowledge and therefore is "associated" with the Band. Does that association limit that parent's ability to carry? That's where I get confused........

Thanks.

Ryan

It seems to me that if the band members rode to the event on a school bus from the school, then it would be school sponsored. If the kids' parents drove them to the meeting, then it would seem to be not sponsored by the school. Just my 2 cents.

same as a public park that you go to.
So what if there is a school event there, as long as you are not there for the event you can be in the park.

or a zoo, you show up, there are school(s) there for field trips. Doesn't affect you.
No worries

Teamless wrote:or a zoo, you show up, there are school(s) there for field trips. Doesn't affect you.
No worries

I wish someone would clue in the Fort Worth Zoo.

I've been wondering about a similar situation: I recently took the kids to a Veterans' Day ceremony in a city park and I didn't realize until partway through that a middle school choir was performing. Not sure exactly what the legal ramifications of that would be. Seems unreasonable that the choir performance -- one small part of the ceremony -- would preclude everything else and make it a no-carry zone, but I was there specifically for the ceremony in which the students were performing so it's not even like I just happened to be in the park.

Tangentially, I've always wondered how it would work if someone had permission from his/her school district to carry on the premises/at school activities, and that district had some sort of event that involved another district. Would the person with permission to carry still be allowed to carry by virtue of permission from district #1, or would the lack of permission from district #2 preclude that? Specifically I've wondered because we're homeschoolers, so I could argue that I as the administrator/supreme authority/whatever in our school have given myself permission to carry at all of our school events. Bu what if, say, I go to the zoo/museum/aquarium/anywhere and sign up for an educational tour and we get lumped in with a school group? I'm participating in a school event, but I have permission to carry as regards the "school" I'm affiliated with. I have no connection to any other school group that might be on that tour or whatever, but I'm participating with them. Do I have to disarm? Or ask for a separate tour, or leave? And yeah, concealed is concealed and so on. But I'm a law-abiding type and I prefer to stay that way, even if I'm the only one who ever knows. I just think it's a horribly unclear section of the law and it drives me nuts.

If you can make a good argument for charges applying and that argument hasn't been refuted by an appeals court then you can be charged and convicted. I don't know that I would allow that to change my carry habits but If for some reason a cop who was there told me to remove my firearm I wouldn't get all "I know the Law" on him unless I was willing to be a test case.

Someone please explain why this part of 46.035 is not applicable. City council would be government wouldn't it?

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

Larry

lfinsr wrote:Someone please explain why this part of 46.035 is not applicable. City council would be government wouldn't it?

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

Larry

Keep reading,

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

It can only be off limits if it is posted with a 30.06 sign.

Jaguar wrote:

lfinsr wrote:Someone please explain why this part of 46.035 is not applicable. City council would be government wouldn't it?

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.

Larry

Keep reading,

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

It can only be off limits if it is posted with a 30.06 sign.

That's a pretty concise explanation... I just thought I understood. Thank you sir.

In regard to being allowed to carry on school property during school activities and events. If I have a legitament card giving me permission by school #1, I see no problem at all carrying at any event on that school's campus no matter what other schools are in attendance. I would not however feel that I was allowed to carry at another school's campus (or any other off-limits location) no matter how many of our students were there.