TexasCHLforum.com

Apparently Houston was the second worst city in the nation for Mail Carriers bitten.

If dogs on the loose are biting that many mail carriers, they've got to be bitting other people too. Ya'll be careful out there.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... 66EM05.htm

The Associated Press May 17, 2007, 10:30AM EST
Fewer dog bites for mail carriers
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID

For a mail carrier looking to escape dog bites, New York City is the place to go, and California is the place to avoid.

The New York metropolitan area recorded no dog bites of letter carriers last year.

At the other end of the scale, the Santa Ana, Calif., area led the nation with 96 bitten carriers, and three of the top five spots for carriers to get bitten were in the Golden State.

That doesn't surprise Juan Barrios, a carrier in Long Beach, who needed 50 stitches on the right side of his face after being attacked by three dogs in 2001.

"I fought off two but one got in a lucky bite," Barrios said in a telephone interview.

"Unfortunately, the customers think because the dogs are docile to them, they will be docile to everybody else," said Barrios, who nearly lost an eye in the attack.

"Every animal needs to be protective, but its up to the customers to keep them trained," he added. "Here in California they just seem not to do it."

Some customers try to introduce their dogs to the regular carrier, but that still leaves the substitute carrier vulnerable, he noted.

Carriers are trained in how to defend themselves, he said, and are discouraged from petting or getting close to dogs.

The 2001 case wasn't the only time Barrios has been attacked, he said, but other times he has been able to defend himself with his mail sack or spray.

It's not unusual to hear jokes about carriers being bitten, but it's no laughing matter to them or the post office, which holds regular dog awareness programs.

Indeed, the post office kicked off dog bite awareness week on Thursday with a ceremony in Long Beach.

In 2006 some 3,184 letter carriers were bitten by dogs, the agency said, down slightly from 3,273 the year before.

After the New York metro area, next safest was Alaska with 2 bites, followed by Honolulu, 3 and Maine and Montana with 9 each.

Following Santa Ana's 96 bites were Houston, 94; Sacramento, 82; Los Angeles, 77 and South Florida, 71.

*sings*
"Who let tha dawgs out?
who?
who who who who?"

~Baha Men

Between my youth and my 28 year career as a telephone man I was bitten no less than 16 times. Most of the bites were just nips that didn't draw blood, but a couple were pretty serious.

I only killed one, but I maced a few.

I have never really been scared of a dog except when it was actually chewing on me, but there were a couple that never bit that worried me a little.

I had to get to the side of a house with a nasty dog in the yard to effect a repair, so I stood the dog off and did my thing while carefully observing him, and then left a card on the front door and departed. The next day my boss had a call from the dog owner wanting to know how I had gotten past their dog, they were afraid I might have penned it up or something.

And then there was the time I got up on the front porch of a house where I had been warned "two mean dogs" but I hadn't seen any when I pulled into the drive. They were asleep under the porch and when they came boiling out I made a record run and leaped to the top of my truck. I had left the driver's side window open so I climbed in.

As a K-9 officer I learned to tolerate dog bites through shear repetition. Being in that career path involves you not only sending your dog after an agitator in training but the reverse as well. Even though we used bite suites and sleeves, dogs, especial Belgian Malinois like mine, are very fast and agile. Every once in awhile I'd catch one on the wrong arm (I'm ambidextrous as well, and believe it or not I tended to forget which arm I had the sleeve on, especially when they turned two dogs loose on me at once. I never had anything worse than minor punctures and large bruises, except once when my own dog bit me on the face when I was stupid enough to get in his way just as he jumped for a burglar (I didn't know he was hiding in the rafters right above my head). That one opened me up a good two inches right above the bridge of my nose.

You learn very fast not to struggle, to stand still and wait for them to stop gnawing on you. Of course, that doesn't work so well for untrained dogs that are biting out of fear or dominance instead of pure joy. Those you just have to stay on your feet and try to kick in the head or flank and do a whole lot of yelling to intimidate them into backing off (With a trained apprehension dog this will have the opposite effect). Keep your hands and fingers away, those are the easiest bones to break under 200lbs/inch jaw pressure. Never turn your back or run, four legs are always faster than two! OC spray works well, pepper spray is generally useless unless you get a good shot right in their nose, doesn't seem to affect them much in the eyes. Popping a cap in them should be a last resort in my opinion. I'd only shoot one if I felt it was going to take me down or if it was obviously vicious and going after someone else.

tfrazier wrote:OC spray works well, pepper spray is generally useless

I was of the impression that OC and Pepper Spray were the same thing.
am I missing something, or did you mean Mace and Pepper Spray?

You're right...I meant CN - old fashioned tear gas. Works better on dogs than OC from what my instructors at Adlerhorst K9 told me. There are products that combine the two to get you the best of both worlds. The best you can get are the ones designed to use against Bears...but I wouldn't trust anything below several rounds from a 44 magnum for a bear!

This why I have little tolerance for people shootings dogs. It is just NOT a life threatening scenario. If it was, we would have to arm all Letter Carriers, Meter Readers, phone company installers, etc.

Renegade wrote:This why I have little tolerance for people shootings dogs. It is just NOT a life threatening scenario. If it was, we would have to arm all Letter Carriers, Meter Readers, phone company installers, etc.

OC can be quite effective against dogs.

But you're wrong. It is clearly a deadly force scenario. Several people have died in Texas in the last few years from dog attacks. Like the article says, pepper spray and a mail bag may be effective against one or two dogs, but 3 or more dogs attacking is a very serious problem.

The LAPD, who are one of the few law enforcement agencies to keep statistics on shooting dogs, estimates that 25% of the time they open fire, they shoot at dogs.

Paladin wrote: But you're wrong. It is clearly a deadly force scenario. Several people have died in Texas in the last few years from dog attacks. Like the article says, pepper spray and a mail bag may be effective against one or two dogs, but 3 or more dogs attacking is a very serious problem.

"Several people have died in Texas in the last few years from dog attacks" is anecdotal evidence. Sure people die. Sure children are more likely to die. People die from drinking too much water too. The facts show 99.99% of all dog bites are not serious. And that is dogs that bite. Since most dogs shot are done so BEFORE they bite, that probably adds another 10x, so now we are at 99.999% of all barking/threatening dogs are not serious threats to human life or limb.

Paladin wrote: The LAPD, who are one of the few law enforcement agencies to keep statistics on shooting dogs, estimates that 25% of the time they open fire, they shoot at dogs.

This only proves my point. They are shooting dogs that are not a threat.

Hey I know lots of humans have a deep paranoia of dogs. And a dog that growls or shows teeth can make them hysterical. My point is, if Letter Carriers, Meter Readers, phone company installers can figure out how to avoid death from dogs, so can gun-toters.

Renegade wrote:This why I have little tolerance for people shootings dogs. It is just NOT a life threatening scenario. If it was, we would have to arm all Letter Carriers, Meter Readers, phone company installers, etc.

The post office used to issue Mace to their carriers under a different brand name, and knowing the carriers in our neighborhoods, we could get our hands on some for ourselves. I tried it once or twice, but when facing a charging dog, it's tough to draw, even from your tool pouch at your side, and aim quickly enough to do something, kind of like CHL, you have to maintain a higher condition and that means avoiding those situations when and if possible.

Using it inside a house was problematic too.

Letter carriers and meter readers had an advantage over us, they worked a regular route and knew where the hazards were. When you're walking up to a house to do an installation for a new owner you have no idea what conditions might transpire, and then there are the repairs and disconnects where someone hasn't been there for years. I wonder if anyone has ever studied to see if the postal carriers who got bit were either new or substitutes on their routes, or if the dogs were new.

Our usual routine was to ask homeowners to put dogs in a secure place while we were doing our work. Once i had to disconnect "Grandma's" phone, she had a separate line in her room, and there was an aggressive collie in the house (grandma's faithful dog, which I was not aware of) so I asked the homeowner to put it in another room until I was done and she did so.

Grandma's room was crowded with a huge four poster bed and dresser and wardrobe, and the phone (pre modular days) was connected to a block on the wall behind the bed, so instead of trying to move things, and since there was room, I just crawled under the bed. In the few moments that I was under there the kids came home from school and the first thing they did was let "Old Shep" (REALLY) out of the other room, and the first thing Shep did was charge into grandma's room and bite me on my ankle. Then he stood back and growled me while I scooted the rest lf the way under the bed.

Luckily my boot protected me from injury, but the kids were making a racket and nobody was noticing what was going on, so I had to call the homeowner on her line from Grandma's line (with my butt set) to ask her to come save me.

I count that as a bite, even if I wasn't really hurt, I did have bruises from Shep's teeth.

'strooth!

I look back fondly to those days, just me, my dog, and a crack dealer screaming "Get 'im off me, get 'im off me!"

Let me start another big debate: I own an American Pit Bull Terrier. He's never bitten anyone, is my best buddy, and keeps my home and yard free of burglars. I love him to peices. I also have a three foot stone wall topped by a six foot privacy fence. If "Moses" ever gets out and someone kills him, it's my fault and I get to deal with the grief over losing him, but I can't blame anyone for protecting themselves, their pets, or anyone else from a stray animal with such a powerful physique. That's the situation responsible APBT owners have to resign themselves to due to the idiot owners who make killers out of them.

I can't see myself having to plug any dog only because I have had so much training and real life experience with them and therefore have no reason or excuse to.

I encourage anyone who has an occupation that brings them into frequent encounters with man's best friends to watch a few episodes of "The Dog Whisperer". Ceasar Millan is the only guy I've ever seen on TV that knows what he's talking about when it comes to dogs. A couple of episodes and you'll be amazed at how different your encounters with strange dogs becomes simply because you understand a little more about their psychology.

I'm a strong believer in Human life above any other living creature, as well as "you better keep your furry critters off my property so they don't fight with, breed with, or spread cooties to my furry creatures and I'll do the same"...unless you live on a ranch or farm...rules should be relaxed there, obviously. That's why Texans are still alowed to shoot cattle rustlers!

Renegade wrote:

Paladin wrote: But you're wrong. It is clearly a deadly force scenario. Several people have died in Texas in the last few years from dog attacks. Like the article says, pepper spray and a mail bag may be effective against one or two dogs, but 3 or more dogs attacking is a very serious problem.

"Several people have died in Texas in the last few years from dog attacks" is anecdotal evidence. Sure people die. Sure children are more likely to die. People die from drinking too much water too. The facts show 99.99% of all dog bites are not serious. And that is dogs that bite. Since most dogs shot are done so BEFORE they bite, that probably adds another 10x, so now we are at 99.999% of all barking/threatening dogs are not serious threats to human life or limb.

Paladin wrote: The LAPD, who are one of the few law enforcement agencies to keep statistics on shooting dogs, estimates that 25% of the time they open fire, they shoot at dogs.

This only proves my point. They are shooting dogs that are not a threat.

Hey I know lots of humans have a deep paranoia of dogs. And a dog that growls or shows teeth can make them hysterical. My point is, if Letter Carriers, Meter Readers, phone company installers can figure out how to avoid death from dogs, so can gun-toters.

Renegade,

I love dogs, and most of my encounters with dogs (even large dogs running loose) are fine. But I would suggest you get some legal advice from a lawyer if you don't believe that dog attacks are deadly force situations.

Paladin wrote:
I love dogs, and most of my encounters with dogs (even large dogs running loose) are fine. But I would suggest you get some legal advice from a lawyer if you don't believe that dog attacks are deadly force situations.

You misunderstand, I am not looking for opinions, I am looking for FACTS. This data provides FACTS, showing the opinion that dog attacks are life threatening situations requiring deadly force to resolve, is not based on FACT. This is good news for people encountering a dog and thinking they are going to be killed.

Paladin wrote: Renegade,

I love dogs, and most of my encounters with dogs (even large dogs running loose) are fine. But I would suggest you get some legal advice from a lawyer if you don't believe that dog attacks are deadly force situations.

I think Renegade was approaching it from the common sense point of view. You both make good points, and my take is it's no different from deadly force against people, it all comes down to the individual situation and there'll be a whole bunch of folks with a world of time to criticise the judgement you made when you only had a second to decide. If you pop a stray Pit Bull which is just wandering by and not bothering anyone or anything, the world, even PETA (the hypocritical animal worshipers) will praise you. If you smack a ferel pig or possum rooting around in your flower garden they'll bring you up on cruelty charges!

Wasn't there a case in New York recently where an 80 year old man was brought up on charges because he beat a rat to death he found in his front garden? Anybody else hear/remember that?

PETA is against humans owning pet animals.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/