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AR-15
I bought all the internet hype about the AK and for years, I've never shot nor owned an AR-15, but the AR-15 is really a lot more reliable than all the bad press it got from its early days in Vietnam. As long as you keep it lubed, even if dirty, it will be 100% reliable. Here's a guy who threw dirt in his AR-15's action and he says that it worked fine after he sprayed some oil on the bolt: http://youtu.be/EwXhm45x3WM. It is a joy to shoot; extremely reliable (hundreds of rounds of el cheapo ammo, no failures), extremely accurate, zero recoil, ergonomic and a very lightweight & handy toy. Great fun! (just keep in mind that it is a PITA to field strip and clean. Here's the instruction manual:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_7/354791_.html)

AK-47
Also, the AK is a lot more accurate than the bad reputation it gets from BGs with rusty AKs used by people with zero marksmanship training shooting crappy ammo in the sand box. Very solid, heavy gun that means business. It has lots of sharp corners that could cut you. It is definitely NOT ergonomic. It is as much an axe as the AR is a fine fencing sword. In the hands of a skilled marksman, the AK is a lot less accurate than the AR, but the average weekend plinkster having fun would not notice the difference. Average group size offhand from a standing position is about 6 to 7 inches at 100 yards, for me, shooting with irons.

SKS
The poor man's AK-47. You can buy 3 SKS for the price of one AK. It shoots the same round as the AK and is a bit more accurate. the only negative is that the capacity is limited to 10 rounds in a fixed magazine that is fed by stripper clips. Here is a comparison of the accuracy of the SKS vs AK-47 that mirrors my personal shooting experience with these platforms. http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/threeaks.htm

Ok, so what are my recommendations? Do not believe the internet hype. The AK is accurate enough for 80% of all shooters out there. It will outshoot you if you buy a quality one. Look for a nice straight and flat receiver. If the metal is pinched in where the pins and bolts hold it together, then it is garbage. Here is a video buying guide for AKs: http://youtu.be/seY9ZZxMFIQ The modern AR is very reliable. Look at Colt, Wyndham Weaponry, Del-Ton, Smith & Wesson, and Stag Arms. There are literally hundreds of companies manufacturing AR-15's, so this list is just the tip of the iceberg. Look for a full thickness barrel. Do not accept "pencil barrels". They are garbage. Do not accept .223 only rifles. You want .223/5.56. Polymer receivers and composite receivers are also crap. How many countries use a polymer lower receiver M16 for their infantry rifle? None. Call the company pretending to be an unsatisfied customer to test if they will honor their warranty. A "lifetime warranty" is worthless unless they honor it.

drjoker,

Can you elaborate on your comment about pencil barrels?

I ask because I have a 16" pencil barrel on my colt. I have shot it at 500 yards and was able to hit not ony a 3' steel plate, but hit whichever target I wished on that plate. I did this using sand bags and a 4x ACOG. Also, the barrel was too hot to hold at the time. I wanted to see what heating up would do to it's accuracy. As far as I could tell, it had no effect.

So I'm curious, what makes them "garbage"?

Get Polish Tental in 5.45x39. Affordable soft recoil and accurate. Oh, did I mention deadly bullet?

What's your budget and intended purpose of rifle. SKS almost cost as much as AKs now. I had 5 SKS and sold them. I have over a dozen AKs but haven't shot one in 6 years now. The SKS may be a little more accurate than a AK. I clean my AR twice and year and may have over 2k rounds between cleanings. Granted I have a JP rifle but that may or may not make a difference.

Pawpaw wrote:drjoker,

Can you elaborate on your comment about pencil barrels?

I ask because I have a 16" pencil barrel on my colt. I have shot it at 500 yards and was able to hit not ony a 3' steel plate, but hit whichever target I wished on that plate. I did this using sand bags and a 4x ACOG. Also, the barrel was too hot to hold at the time. I wanted to see what heating up would do to it's accuracy. As far as I could tell, it had no effect.

So I'm curious, what makes them "garbage"?

Generally speaking, the thinner the barrels, the less accurate they are when the barrel gets hot. Try shooting another AR with a normal profile barrel, then shoot your pencil barrel. Compare results. Use a scope on both and shoot from bench rest. I suppose if you are weight sensitive, then the pencil barrel would be better since you'd have to lug around less pounds of stuff when backpacking and hiking. Besides, when hunting, you're never gonna get a hot barrel anyways as you'd normally only fire one or two shots only. So, no, it's not "garbage" per se, but in my "opinion" they're "garbage" because I'm one of those crazy people who'd shoot all day long whilst drinking (soda) and chatting with friends over a bbq grill. We'd go through an entire 50 cal ammo box of ammo or more in one day, with the same gun. The handguard would get too hot to handle before we'd stop. With Mosins, our shoulders would be too sore to shoot another round before we'd stop. With .380 pistols, my wrist would be too painful to go on before we'd stop. You get the picture.....

Thanks. I was curious what your opinion was based on and now I know.

In my case, I like how fast the rifle handles in close quarters with the reduced weight out front. It is not a match rifle, but plenty accurate for my intended use.

BTW, did you know that the original M-16 rifles all had pencil barrels?

drjoker wrote:AR-15

Great fun! (just keep in mind that it is a PITA to field strip and clean. Here's the instruction manual:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_7/354791_.html)

What makes the AR a pain to field strip and clean? I've been clening them since 1967 it takes me about 10 minutes to clean lube and be back in action.

Do not accept "pencil barrels". They are garbage. Do not accept .223 only rifles. You want .223/5.56. Polymer receivers and composite receivers are also crap. How many countries use a polymer lower receiver M16 for their infantry rifle? None. Call the company pretending to be an unsatisfied customer to test if they will honor their warranty. A "lifetime warranty" is worthless unless they honor it.

There is noting wrong with "pencil" barrels unless you are shooting full auto. What do you base your statement about polymer/composite lowers on? I've been running a New Frontier lower for several years. I just put a 300 Blackout upper on it. If you replace the polymer FC parts with metal ones and put non rotating pins it's as good as any other.

MoJo wrote:

drjoker wrote:AR-15

Great fun! (just keep in mind that it is a PITA to field strip and clean. Here's the instruction manual:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_7/354791_.html)

What makes the AR a pain to field strip and clean? I've been clening them since 1967 it takes me about 10 minutes to clean lube and be back in action.

Do not accept "pencil barrels". They are garbage. Do not accept .223 only rifles. You want .223/5.56. Polymer receivers and composite receivers are also crap. How many countries use a polymer lower receiver M16 for their infantry rifle? None. Call the company pretending to be an unsatisfied customer to test if they will honor their warranty. A "lifetime warranty" is worthless unless they honor it.

There is noting wrong with "pencil" barrels unless you are shooting full auto. What do you base your statement about polymer/composite lowers on? I've been running a New Frontier lower for several years. I just put a 300 Blackout upper on it. If you replace the polymer FC parts with metal ones and put non rotating pins it's as good as any other.

I'm sure he said the same thing about "plastic pistols" awhile back too.

drjoker, FWIW, here's some info on barrel weight and accuracy.....

1. ALL barrels lose some accuracy due to heat buildup. The primary difference between a heavy match barrel and a pencil barrel is that the heavier barrel acts like a heat sink because of all the extra metal, and it will consequently delay loss of accuracy due to heat.

2. Heat is NOT the major reason light barrels tend to be less accurate than heavy barrels. STIFFNESS is the major reason. A heavier profile barrel is stiffer than a lighter profile barrel. When the round detonates, a shockwave travels down the steel of the barrel before the bullet can exit the muzzle. The shockwave causes the barrel to vibrate just like a tuning fork. Imagine if you could observe the tip of the tine of a tuning fork as it was vibrating. You would see the tip of it "waving around". THAT is what happens to barrels. They "wave around" at the muzzle as they vibrate. That means that, at any given microsecond before the bullet exits the muzzle, the muzzle is pointing in a different direction by a small amount from where it was pointing the microsecond before. Watch this video of an SKS barrel flexing as the rifle is fired:
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=RZf0kUwCdrQ[/youtube]

This AK barrel is flexing and waggling around even worse (which probably explains the accuracy discrepancy between the two):
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=L_E_GJayano[/youtube]

Now......ALL rifles experience this phenomenon to some degree or other; but, generally speaking the bigger around the barrel is in relation to its bore, the stiffer the barrel will be, and the less it will vibrate and the less the muzzle will wag around under that vibration.

Here is another factor: barrel length in relationship to diameter. The shorter it is in relation to its diameter, the stiffer it will be. Take two heavy match-barreled Remington 700 "sniper" rifles in .308 winchester, identical in all respects except for barrel length. The shorter barrel will be stiffer than the longer barrel, even though they are the same external diameter, with the same degree of taper, and the same bore diameter. Consequently, a 20" barreled rifle will be marginally more accurate than a 26" barreled rifle, because it won't vibrate as much. However, the tradeoff is velocity. The 20" barrel cannot match the 26" barrel for velocity, which is why longer barrels are still common in 1,000 yard matches where the round must still be supersonic at that distance or be disqualified from competition.

But, barrel quality is also a major factor, which is why some pencil-barreled rifles may be more accurate than heavier barreled rifles. The type of steel used, the method by which it was rifled, heat treating, twist rates....all these things come into play.....and don't forget the quality of the ammo. If you're shooting 4 MOA off hand with a heavier profile barrel, using crap ammo, the guy next to you with a pencil barrel shooting match ammo may well out shoot you.

And I haven't even gotten into whether the barrel is free-floated or not....

I was shooting at 250 yards just today with my son, both of us shooting DMR type AR15s which we build ourselves. Both rifles have 18" stainless steel heavy barrels, but from different manufacturers. His is a Rock River barrel, and mine is from Odin Works. Both have 1:8 twists, and Wylde Chambers. We were both shooting 3 different batches of handloads we made up together, with 77 grain Sierra Matchkings over Varget powder, with CCI small rifle primers and once-fired Black Hills brass. One batch had 23.5 grains of powder, the second had 24 grains, and the third 24.5 grains. We loaded all of these cartridges in the same loading session, on the same day, on my loading bench. The only variable was the powder charge. Now mind you, other than manufacturer, these barrels are from all appearances identical, with identical specifications. Neither rifle liked the 24 grain powder charge that much, but my son's rifle really liked the 23.5 grain charge, and mine really liked the 24.5 grain charge. AND.... across the board, his rifle shot just a little better than mine............or......maybe he shot a little better than I did. No way to tell.

My point is this: rifle making is an arcane science, and they are far more complicated than most people realize. One little variable can make a lot of difference.....or no difference at all. You can make a few generalizations, but just when you think you've got it all figured out, along comes some guy with a pencil-barreled AR who will out-shoot everybody. It might be the barrel quality. It might be the ammo quality. It might be a case of choosing the perfect load for that particular barrel. Or, it could be that he's just that good. You'll never know. But if he outshoots you, you might want to resist the temptation to tell him you went with a heavy barrel because pencil barrels are less accurate than heavy barrels.

Now, if you want to get REALLY geeky about it:
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSMwCXO2gbU[/youtube]

These days cheap and expensive AK's and AR's are about the same price. They each have their own ups and downs. I have both. They are all fun to shoot.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Now, if you want to get REALLY geeky about it:

I couldn't resist. That was interesting.

I have a Yugo M 59.66 that shoots 2 inch groups at 100 yrds using Yugo brasses FMJ surplus. This is done slowfire on sandbag rest.

cajunautoxer wrote:What's your budget and intended purpose of rifle.

This is what it all boils down to.

It is a rare shooter who can shoot better than a decent quality rifle.

IMO, the reliability of a self-defense gun is more important than the supreme accuracy.

My suggestion is to buy the best gun you can afford. Very simple.

If sub-MOA is needed, quality bolt-action rifles are the answer.

Beiruty wrote:If sub-MOA is needed, quality bolt-action rifles are the answer.

Beiruty, I agree, but drjoker seems to have his mind set on a semi-automatic rifle.

If he is primarily concerned about accuracy and not wanting to pay the going rate for a high-quality semi-automatic, then a bolt action is a good alternative.