TexasCHLforum.com

I am curious and I apologize in advance if this is not the place to ask this question, but I am curious when the law says you can open carry on your own property, does that pertain specifically to property you own, or does it include property you rent? I live in a townhome subdivision in Houston, so I don't have much of a front or back yard, but I do have a garage. So if I am out in my garage or out in my front yard of this property that I rent, could I go to jail if I am open carrying my handgun?

Second, as to the castle doctrine, am I forbidden from telling a "could-be" robber that I have a gun? Or posting a sign above my front door where I found some metal piece that someone stuck in the door frame that says "Intruders will be shot immediately" get me arrested?

I ask this because when I came home today, I noticed a blue vehicle sitting in the cul-de-sac, and he was on the opposite side of it, but right across from my home. There's nothing but open field at the very end of the cul-de-sac, and there's been a few break-ins into peoples vehicles lately. One neighbor behind me was shot when he came out to find someone breaking into his vehicle a week and a half ago. Anyway, I couldn't help myself but go ask the guy what he was doing just sitting there. He claimed he was waiting for a friend of his to get home that lived down the street, which made me think to myself why is this guy not sitting in his friends driveway? I remembered seeing a vehicle sitting in a manner such as this one, which I actually think was the same vehicle earlier that night that my neighbor who lives behind me was shot. The young guy that was driving it was respectful and all that when he answered and even said he would leave if I wanted him to, which made it even more suspicious. I noticed he had dropped some trash, or I assume it was his because it was right outside of his vehicle like he just dropped it out of the window, so I made sure to go back out after he was gone and pick it up, just incase someone does break into my home. It seemed like he was casing the block. When I walked back up to my door after retrieving the candy wrapper and lottery ticket that I assume was his on the ground, I noticed this rusty piece of metal similar to a razor blade that was stuck above my door in the door frame. I wanted to say something to give off the hint that I do have a gun in my home, and not to be fooled if my car isn't here because my wife will be home while I am at work and isn't afraid of using it.

I just don't want to get in trouble, but would like to give someone would be robber or burglar some kind of fair warning to try to deter them from breaking into my home. I do rent it, however, and just want to be sure before I make any move like sitting in my garage with my gun in my hand or posting a sign of some sort outside my door warning anybody thinking of breaking into re-think it.

Sorry for the noobie questions. I have never owned a handgun before and don't want to deprive myself of my rights.

Sorry, may have answered my own question via google as far as open carry, "property under your control" as the law states. I am in control of my property, even though it is rented, so I would assume I am good to go?

bleed wrote:Sorry, may have answered my own question via google as far as open carry, "property under your control" as the law states. I am in control of my property, even though it is rented, so I would assume I am good to go?

You would assume that and in most cases, you'd be correct - you're in control of property that you rent. You should be protected and you should be allowed to do what you're suggesting.

However:
In an urban situation, I'd be worried about the following verbiage:
"intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place."

The argument could be on if your front yard is a public place. Public place has nothing to do with private ownership:
Penal Code: (40) "Public place" means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes, but is not limited to, streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops. I could easily argue that I could walk into your front yard and knock and the door and therefore it's a "public place".

Your front yard probably isn't a "public place" - at least not in reality - but reference arrests for public intoxication - being in your own front yard is NOT a protection...

The more realistic secondary concern would be that you could be charged with disorderly conduct.. This is sometimes the catch-all charge for behavior that isn't well tolerated.... Again, open carry of long guns IS legal, but that doesn't mean that it can't get you arrested.

You're right. I wouldn't wanna walk around in the front yard with it. Or even literally hold it in my hand in my garage. I just don't want some kid (that's who reportedly shot my neighbor, kid being a teenager in appearance) coming thinking I'm just gonna let him shoot at me and not shoot back or not possibly shoot him if I catch him in my home. I don't suppose putting a sign up would be too smart either. Parked my car in my garage tonight. I hope for his sake he wasn't casing my place thinking he's got a quick buck to grab. He's in for a 9mm surprise if he does.

I would not tell anyone that I had a gun in my home. All that tells the potential bad guy is that you probably don't have a gun on you, that there are guns in your home to steal when your gone and/or to bring his own gun if he decides to do a home invasion when you are home because you may be armed. The only warning bad guys will get in my home are an alarm if I am not home or a flash and loud bang if I am home.

bleed wrote:You're right. I wouldn't wanna walk around in the front yard with it. Or even literally hold it in my hand in my garage.

We just sold our house and are now renters in it whil our new house is being built and even before selling it I seldom walked out in the front OR back yard with an OC handgun... my reasoning on why ADVERTISE that you have weapons in the house... we live only a couple blocks from the city housing complex which is the big reason why i dont OC around the outside...

bleed wrote:I am curious and I apologize in advance if this is not the place to ask this question, but I am curious when the law says you can open carry on your own property, does that pertain specifically to property you own, or does it include property you rent? I live in a townhome subdivision in Houston, so I don't have much of a front or back yard, but I do have a garage. So if I am out in my garage or out in my front yard of this property that I rent, could I go to jail if I am open carrying my handgun?

The law says you can openly carry on property that you own or control. I would say renting a property definitely counts as it being under your control.

bleed wrote:Second, as to the castle doctrine, am I forbidden from telling a "could-be" robber that I have a gun? Or posting a sign above my front door where I found some metal piece that someone stuck in the door frame that says "Intruders will be shot immediately" get me arrested?

I would advise against such signs. If you were required to defend yourself on your property, the prosecutor could use the sign to convince the jury you had a predisposition to kill someone on your property. It is not illegal to tell someone you have a gun, but I feel it should only be done in situations when you are in danger, probably while drawing the gun trying to get the intruder to flee or comply.

bleed wrote:I just don't want to get in trouble, but would like to give someone would be robber or burglar some kind of fair warning to try to deter them from breaking into my home. I do rent it, however, and just want to be sure before I make any move like sitting in my garage with my gun in my hand or posting a sign of some sort outside my door warning anybody thinking of breaking into re-think it.

There's no such thing has "fair warning" when someone is breaking into your home. If you want to prevent someone from breaking in, make your home more secure and less attractive compared to your neighbors. Burglars and home invaders typically go for easy targets, unless the burglary/invasion was targeted towards you specifically for some reason.

I would also say that sitting in your garage with your gun in your hand waiting for someone to break in is also a VERY BAD idea. There was a story about a man who did this very same thing. There was a teenager that kept breaking into his garage to steal things. One day he put some valuables in the garage with a motion detector, waiting for the burglar again. In an earlier burglary, the man talked about killing intruders in the area. Once the teen broke in again, the guy shot and killed the teen. The man was convicted of homicide. I believe it was because the man was predisposed to killing the teen.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2049010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Property rights aside, let me see if I have this right: You notice a suspicious vehicle sitting across from your home with a suspicious person inside. You are aware of robberies and maybe home invasions in your area, so you walk across the street and confront what may be an armed individual and ask him what he is doing?

With all due respect, did you call 911 first and request an ambulance for yourself?

I would offer a bit different plan the next time this happens. 1) Call the police, and report a suspicious person before doing anything at all. 2) Take pictures and try to get the license plate. If you have zoom, try to get a photo of the face. DO NOT walk across the street to get a better picture. 3) If you have binoculars, get in a place where you can quickly get behind substantial cover and let him see you watching. 4) Do not approach him. Be a good witness. 5) Don't even dream of approaching him and telling him you have a gun. He may have a bigger gun and he may have friends. 5) Don't put up any signs. They may make you feel better, but it's far better to stack the odds in your favor. The less warning a bad guys gets, the better.

In my opinion, you were very, very lucky. I would double up on watching my surroundings while at home. Study this forum carefully and learn. Stay safe.

Robberies and home invasions in the surrounding area are serious concerns that would prompt me to have a gun on my person at home (I do anyway, though). What you know about your home and your defense options are bits of information that should not be shared with anyone who may want to invade your home, so consider keeping this information to yourself and your spouse. I second ShootDontTalk's premise that approaching the strange loitering vehicle was a risky move, and there are better, less risky plans.

The material stuck in your door frame is interesting if not alarming. If I suspected the source to be a stranger, I would simply remove and discard it. I might be tempted, though, to attach it to a length of monofilament and hang in front of the door for a few days sort of as a "I see you marked my house" notice if that would not cause any other inconvenience. If they see that and take it as a sign you may be expecting them, they may seek a path of less resistance.

Regardless of your other actions, if you haven't already done so it would be good to openly discuss home defense plans with your spouse -- both plans to implement while you are present as well as plans for when you are not. Think of different scenarios and consider potential effectiveness of various options. If firearms are part of the plan, consider additional training that allows shooting while moving and shooting at moving targets under time constraints -- this is vastly different than stationary marksmanship. Planning needs to cover several aspects -- floorplan/cover/concealment, weapon choices/locations, action plan/fields of fire and communications are some elements to include. A potential attack in one's home is not something anyone should feel innately familiar with, and you need a plan (carefully considered before-hand) to implement. This will help you move past the shock of someone doing what they are doing so that you can begin stopping the threat to your existence. It has been said that failing to plan is planning to fail.

bleed wrote:You're right. I wouldn't wanna walk around in the front yard with it. Or even literally hold it in my hand in my garage. I just don't want some kid (that's who reportedly shot my neighbor, kid being a teenager in appearance) coming thinking I'm just gonna let him shoot at me and not shoot back or not possibly shoot him if I catch him in my home. I don't suppose putting a sign up would be too smart either. Parked my car in my garage tonight. I hope for his sake he wasn't casing my place thinking he's got a quick buck to grab. He's in for a 9mm surprise if he does.

OK...... long answer here, but bleed, please read it because it sounds like you might be a bit thin on some of the principles of use of force/deadly force in self-defense inside the home.

There is a lot of conflation of the two terms "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground Law", but they don't always mean the same thing. The former applies to your home/vehicle, the latter to everywhere, including your home/vehicle. The right to claim self-defense under "Castle Doctrine" depends on whether or not you control the property in question, which is what differentiates it from your general rights to self-defense under "Stand Your Ground" law.

It boils down to this, and I'm sure there are some niggling details of code in the law I am overlooking here, but the general principle is that you have a legal right in Texas to defend yourself by whatever means necessary — "THREAT of use of force", "Force" if required, "Deadly Force" if the threat rises to that level, but "defend yourself" necessarily excludes "assaulting someone else" — in any place where you have a legal right to be, which necessarily include real property of which you are in control - whether that property is owned, leased, or rented. That means that, on your front lawn, the exact same standards apply for use of deadly force as would apply at your local shopping mall — with the ONLY exception being that you have the right to have the trespasser on your lawn removed by use of force (if necessary), whereas you have no right to force the other party to leave the shopping mall. The main issue revolves around whether or not you may legally use force yourself, or whether that is a matter for the police. You can't just assault someone just because they strayed onto your lawn. As obnoxious as some door-to-door salesmen can be, you can't whup their butts (or threaten to whup their butts) just because they walked up to your front door. There is a continuum in which you must verbally tell them to leave, and then they must not only refuse to leave, but attempt an entry, or threaten to enter, before you can respond by taking defense of yourself and home to the next level, using threat of force, force, or deadly force, as appropriate.

You DO have the right to eject, or have ejected by police, a trespassing person from your property who will not leave when verbally told to leave. Whether or not it is wise to use threats/force/deadly force to accomplish the ejection is a separate issue, and HOW you remove someone from your property is part of that wisdom continuum. However, on the other side of that same transaction, if you are the trespasser, you do not have a legal right to 1) stay on property where you have no legal right to be when told to leave, 2) resist with force when forced to leave, or 3) resist with deadly force when forced by means of deadly force to leave.

That leaves a middle ground that is sometimes foggy, and people who are new to CHL sometimes stumble around in this fog until they get a better understanding of their rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES when make the decision to carry a gun. In a story that was discussed on a shooting group's Facebook page I belong to, a homeowner shot and killed a night time backyard intruder after hearing his dogs barking. The home owner had one of those "We don't dial 911" signs on his front door. He is being prosecuted for murder. No link was provided, so I can't post it here, and that is all the details that I have. That said, MY NFA-trust attorney, a former criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor who is an avid gun guy and who is a member of that shooting group, posted comments in that thread saying that it was a "totality of the circumstances" kind of thing, and absent any details about the dead man having been an actual threat to the homeowner, it would be very difficult to say that the homeowner was innocent. Just because you feel threatened doesn't mean that you are threatened. The perceived threat must be a reasonable assumption. (You will see the words "reasonable" and "reasonably" popping up all through Texas use of force laws.) There are all kinds of non-threatening reasons for why someone could be stumbling around your back yard at night, having nothing to do with your safety. Maybe he was drunk and lost. Maybe he was drunk and trying to sneak into his own house on the other side of the back fence so his wife wouldn't bust him. Maybe he was mentally handicapped and lost. Maybe he was a diabetic with high blood sugar-dementia due to lack of insulin who is lost and stumbling around.........and on and on and on. In other words, you can't just shoot somebody willy-nilly because he is on your property uninvited. There HAS to be a threat, and you have to be able to articulate that threat. If you can articulate the threat, then use of force/deadly force is justified.

Let's take that drunk guy stumbling around your back yard at night because he's lost and at the wrong address......

• RIGHTEOUS: You call the cops and have him taken away.
• RIGHTEOUS: you yell out the window that this is your yard and he'd better leave, and he leaves.
• RIGHTEOUS (but dumb): you exit the house with a pistol and order him to leave, and he leaves.
• RIGHTEOUS (but also dumb): you exit the house and confront him with a pistol, he refuses to leave, you aim the pistol at him, prone him out, and hold him for the police to arrive, they take him away. (And that's a whole 'nuther safety issue, as to the cops who arrive, which is the homeowner, the guy with the gun, or the guy at gunpoint?)
• QUESTIONABLE: ANY scenario in which the police arrive to find a wounded and/or dead intruder who was shot by you, particularly without witnesses.

If this happens inside your home, it changes the legal landscape again.

THAT IS WHY the law treats you differently if you shoot and kill a burglar during daylight hours rather than during the night time. During daylight, the burglar has a (sort of) reasonable expectation that you won't be home, and that's why he chooses daytime to commit his burglary. He doesn't want to encounter you. If you are at home, he'll likely flee. If he does not flee, you have to verbally tell him to leave, OR take him at gunpoint and hold him for police, but you can't just shoot him because you're mad at him for breaking in. For you to righteously shoot him, he has to attack you......or at least go through the motions of attacking you. On the other hand, if he enters your home at night, he has a reasonable expectation of finding people at home, and he doesn't care. Therefore, his unauthorized presence in your home IS a threat, and you are not under the same obligations that you are under in daytime. He doesn't have to attack you first before you can shoot him. His mere presence inside the home is threat enough to use deadly force.

Please do not take what follows personally, it is just a different look at the situation:

Years ago, when I used to have a job that had me out doing business related things all day long, I used to sometimes find a quiet place like a public park, or a nice quiet cul-de-sac where I could park my car and eat my sammich while checking emails and calling customers back. I did not litter, but neither did I concern myself about what some homeowner might think about my presence. The street, even on a cul-de-sac, is a public right of way, and I had every right to be there. I was not loitering. I was not disturbing the peace. I was not trespassing. I was not making obnoxious noises. I was not behaving suspiciously (except perhaps in somebody's fevered imagination). Your guy in the car outside your home could have been me. And absent any proof that his car and the piece of metal stuck in your doorframe are connected, you've got nothing. It might be nothing more than, you being a renter and not the owner, that was the first time you noticed it there, coincidentally at a time of heightened suspicion caused by the presence of the other guy in his car. Furthermore, if that had been me in the car, I would not have offered to leave. I would have told you that I am working, I am on a break to eat my lunch and make some calls, and that I will be gone 15 minutes when I'm finished. If you had then told me to move on, my having every right to be there, I would have told you to go pound sand. I don't mind being checked out by a homeowner; but I won't be ordered around by one when I'm not on his property. Now, he can call the cops after I tell him to go pound sand, and if they show up before I am finished, I will tell them the same thing - that I'm just trying to finish my lunch in peace while I check in with a few customers, and then I'll be on my way. Most cops would tell the homeowner to get back to his property and leave me alone, because I have every right to be there, and he has zero authority over my actions until I trespass on his property. The young man in the blue car in your story may or may not have been a litterbug (you said yourself that you didn't see him drop the litter), but he certainly had every right to be where he was, and it could have easily been that he was simply nice enough to take your concerns into consideration and offer to move along. You many not trust him, and that is your right, but he has rights too, and until he actually commits some kind of offense against you or your property (trespassing included), he had every right to be where he was.

AND BECAUSE HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE WHERE HE WAS, if he was a CHL (you don't know that he wasn't), and you had walked up to him there in the street, on a public thoroughfare, gun in hand, and implied a deadly threat, HE would have been lawfully justified in shooting YOU in self-defense.....because he doesn't know who you are. You're just some guy who walked up to him with an angry look on your face and a gun in your hand. He was looking down, eating his sammich and texting his girlfriend, and the next thing he knows is he looks up because he sees a guy with a gun at his door.

So all this crap about open carry on your private property, and trespassing, and your rights to defense of self and defense of property mean that you had BETTER know what's going on, and know what YOU are doing as well as what the OTHER PERSON is (actually) doing before you react and give him a hole he wasn't born with. And then, the whole legal issues of OC aside, there are the ramifications of surrendering tactical advantages by broadcasting the presence of your weapon.......not to mention your neighborly relations. I am NOT against OC, but only a fool poops in his own bed, and only a fool disregards the effect of his own actions on the tranquility of his neighbors. If they don't care, then it isn't a big deal, but remember that you have to live there, and poisoning the well is counterproductive, so wisdom would dictate having a sense of how your neighbors will feel about it if you OC in your front yard. If you don't care about poisoning the well, then fine. But remember that good neighborhood security ALSO depends on good neighborly relationships. And the bottom line is that if you have a CHL, you don't NEED to OC to have virtually the same protections. I'm NOT saying that my perception of your need should determine what you do. I AM saying that YOUR (accurate) perceptions of YOUR needs should determine what you do - and that includes the landscape of relationship dynamics in your immediate neighborhood and on your street.

Have a "big picture" approach. Don't get bogged down in whether you can do this or that specific thing in this or that specific situation. Rather, get to know the entirety of use of force law well and your rights within its context.

Charles Cotton, the owner of this forum, teaches an EXCELLENT use of force and use of deadly force in Texas seminar that I highly recommend if you can find him teaching one in your area. It will help you even more than your CHL class did to under stand your rights, and your obligations.

The Annoyed Man wrote:THAT IS WHY the law treats you differently if you shoot and kill a burglar during daylight hours rather than during the night time. During daylight, the burglar has a (sort of) reasonable expectation that you won't be home, and that's why he chooses daytime to commit his burglary. He doesn't want to encounter you. If you are at home, he'll likely flee. If he does not flee, you have to verbally tell him to leave, OR take him at gunpoint and hold him for police, but you can't just shoot him because you're mad at him for breaking in. For you to righteously shoot him, he has to attack you......or at least go through the motions of attacking you. On the other hand, if he enters your home at night, he has a reasonable expectation of finding people at home, and he doesn't care. Therefore, his unauthorized presence in your home IS a threat, and you are not under the same obligations that you are under in daytime. He doesn't have to attack you first before you can shoot him. His mere presence inside the home is threat enough to use deadly force.

I can't quite agree with your logic here. I see no basis whatsoever for such a presumption or expectation. You could be home on a day off. You could have a stay at home spouse. You might be retired and always at home. Your mother-in-law could be living with you. You could have children at home sick from school. You or a spouse could be home sick. You could be on vacation and have a house sitter. You could have visiting friends or relatives present. Your kids might be out of school and have friends over. Conversely, at night, you might be away on an evening out. The family could be out to dinner or visiting grandma. You could be on vacation. Or in this 24/7 world you could simply work at night.

The bottom line is that while in general, a home may be more likely to be vacant during the day than at night, and yes, a day burglar may be less inclined to confrontation, a criminal is merely slightly reducing his risk by playing the odds, and has no basis for concluding any particular home is vacant during the day. In Oklahoma the home across the street from us was broken into during the day. It was only by accident that the young stay at home mom and her new baby were not there. The Sheriff said SOP for these criminals was to knock on the door and break in if they didn't get an answer. Since not answering the door doesn't mean no one is home such a criminal is only marginally concerned that someone is present and is willing to take a big risk that a house is vacant.

So, as a homeowner you have no basis for concluding that someone breaking in during the day is less likely to be a threat justifying the use of deadly force than one breaking in at night. I've read about plenty of home invasions that happen during the day. Also, I've never heard of anyone in Texas being prosecuted for shooting a burglar during the day instead of at night based on any perceived intent of day versus night burglars. I am aware of the law distinguishing shooting a fleeing burglar at night from one in the daytime but my understanding is that distinction is based on visibility....that at night you are less able to tell if the criminal is armed. That's never been much of an issue for me though because even though the law may allow it I wouldn't do it and law or no law, you'd be risking prosecution on the optics of the act. As I understand the law anyone using force to enter your home has created the circumstances that permit the use of deadly force inside the home....and they don't have to kick your door down either....it includes force of turning the knob to open an unlocked door. Someone please correct me if this is wrong as I have no desire either to spend a fortune on attorneys or end up in jail.

Even if the guy is up to no good, don't approach him. That is what got George Zimmerman in all that mess. It can end up costing alot of money in legal fees and your freedom proving you were attacked when it was you who approached him. Plus you can also put on a couple pounds.

Javier730 wrote:Even if the guy is up to no good, don't approach him. That is what got George Zimmerman in all that mess. It can end up costing alot of money in legal fees and your freedom proving you were attacked when it was you who approached him. Plus you can also put on a couple pounds.

And many would be burglars will move along or chose another target if they realize they are being watched. Without approaching the person or vehicle, let them see you watching them or taking their picture.

VMI77 wrote: I can't quite agree with your logic here. I see no basis whatsoever for such a presumption or expectation. You could be home on a day off. You could have a stay at home spouse. You might be retired and always at home. Your mother-in-law could be living with you. You could have children at home sick from school. You or a spouse could be home sick. You could be on vacation and have a house sitter. You could have visiting friends or relatives present. Your kids might be out of school and have friends over. Conversely, at night, you might be away on an evening out. The family could be out to dinner or visiting grandma. You could be on vacation. Or in this 24/7 world you could simply work at night.

The bottom line is that while in general, a home may be more likely to be vacant during the day than at night, and yes, a day burglar may be less inclined to confrontation, a criminal is merely slightly reducing his risk by playing the odds, and has no basis for concluding any particular home is vacant during the day. In Oklahoma the home across the street from us was broken into during the day. It was only by accident that the young stay at home mom and her new baby were not there. The Sheriff said SOP for these criminals was to knock on the door and break in if they didn't get an answer. Since not answering the door doesn't mean no one is home such a criminal is only marginally concerned that someone is present and is willing to take a big risk that a house is vacant.

So, as a homeowner you have no basis for concluding that someone breaking in during the day is less likely to be a threat justifying the use of deadly force than one breaking in at night. I've read about plenty of home invasions that happen during the day. Also, I've never heard of anyone in Texas being prosecuted for shooting a burglar during the day instead of at night based on any perceived intent of day versus night burglars. I am aware of the law distinguishing shooting a fleeing burglar at night from one in the daytime but my understanding is that distinction is based on visibility....that at night you are less able to tell if the criminal is armed. That's never been much of an issue for me though because even though the law may allow it I wouldn't do it and law or no law, you'd be risking prosecution on the optics of the act. As I understand the law anyone using force to enter your home has created the circumstances that permit the use of deadly force inside the home....and they don't have to kick your door down either....it includes force of turning the knob to open an unlocked door. Someone please correct me if this is wrong as I have no desire either to spend a fortune on attorneys or end up in jail.

I agree. Being retired and now living with our daughter here, we have had occasion to call 911 twice in two years: first time for the alarm at our house going off during the day when we were away, and the other was the alarm at our granddaughter's house going off when she and the great granddaughters were (thankfully) away for the morning. Both times I visited with the officers after clearing the houses and they told me there was no longer a line of distinction between daytime robberies and violent, armed home invasions. According to what I've been told by HPD, Constables, and HCSO most daytime robberies are now armed home invasions - at least here.

They also said there had been a large increase in homeowners that were either armed, or in a number of cases, shooting the home invaders - a trend they approved of. I don't see every case, but at least in the Houston area, of all the shootings of invaders, I don't remember any lasting legal issues for those who pull the trigger. At least in your own home. Personally, anyone who forces his way into my home at any time of the day will probably not like how they are greeted.