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Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:45 pm
by nightmare69
I don't understand why they feel they have the 'right' to travel in a motor vehicle without a license or insurance.

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:56 pm
by cb1000rider
nightmare69 wrote:I don't understand why they feel they have the 'right' to travel in a motor vehicle without a license or insurance.
Probably for the same reasons some people feel like the government doesn't have the right to tax us...

Besides, this is Texas, I just assume that *most* cars on the road don't have insurance.

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:32 pm
by Jago668
If you are willing to watch something from Alex Jones, this is about the most coherent version of anything along those lines I've stumbled across. It basically boils down to you aren't conducting business on the road therefore you don't need any of that stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3nok7Cby28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:55 am
by nightmare69
Funny how they claim to be exempt from laws but still want to remain under the protection of said law. Also, if you're so against government then get off the road that a government entity built and maintains.

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:17 am
by The Annoyed Man
There are nuances there. On one hand, we are each sovereign citizens, endowed with inalienable rights, and if I read the Constitution and supporting documentation authored by the founders correctly, my rights are mine, and government may not infringe upon them without substantial due process, and it is the government's burden to prove that such infringements against a specific individual's rights are necessary and/or deserved. Furthermore, it is unconstitutional for government to infringe upon enumerated rights wholesale against The People. That is why we cannot take someone's liberty without a trial, and the burden of proof is upon the prosecution, not the defense; and that is why we cannot round up democrats wholesale and throw them in prison for treason. That same Constitution also gives certain powers and authority to the federal government, but it seems to make it clear that the job of government is to uphold and protect my rights, not to infringe upon them without those significant burdens of due process.

ON THE SIDE OF A CITIZEN'S SOVEREIGNTY:
  • I am fairly certain that, if the founders were alive to day, they would recommend imprisonment or execution for treason for any member of Congress, the Courts, or any President who had ever used the Commerce Clause to violate the 10th Amendment in any regard whatsoever, or to contravene the rights of an individual, PARTICULARLY for the purposes of violating that individual's right to travel freely in the absence of any evidence of his having possibly committed a crime. We talk a lot here in Texas about legislative intent when it comes to gun rights (this was at issue just last night in the debate between Huffines and Huffman over Huffines's amendment 9 to HB 910, with someone moving to make sure that the legislative intent was formally entered into the record). In Texas, we hold that legislative intent, wherever it has been recorded, to be the actual meaning of the law in question. In the case of the founders, we HAVE their "intent" on record already (Federalist Papers, etc.), and from that record, we already know what their intent was with regard to the Commerce Clause..... in no small part because they deliberately used easy to understand linguistic forms so as to avoid any confusion about that intent. So, anyone who interprets any part of the Constitution any differently than that clear record is, in my book, guilty of treason for subverting the Constitution.........in violation, I might add, of any oath they might have taken to preserve and protect it, from ALL enemies. They deserve death for that treason. Those who escaped that execution by living to a ripe old age and dying in their beds are surely roasting in hades for their abuses of liberty. It's not to late for the currently living offenders to face justice. But, they won't face justice because, for the most part, their prosecutors and judges agree with their abuse of the Commerce Clause. So, I view it almost as a duty of citizenship to force anyone in authority to make their case before they can lay hands on me, detain me, see my identification, etc.
BALANCED AGAINST THAT:
  • An emotionally mature individual recognizes that he exists within the context of a society in which the rights and needs (in that order of importance) of different individuals may come into conflict sometimes, and as a sop to that reality, the mature individual must agree to certain compromises which best recognize the rights and needs of both parties to that social transaction. On the macro-level, this is called "society" — a human construct made up of individuals within which these compromises add up to an accepted code of behavior in the aggregate — and the obligations on either side of that construct between the macro rights and needs of society and the rights and needs of the individual is called the "social contract".


An example of a social contract would be: I recognize that an orderly and just society is beneficial to the individual who lives within it. In that light, I realize that good policing is necessary to that orderliness. I also recognize that there is a tension between the need of police to impose order, and the need of the people to have their rights respected; AND I recognize that, for that policing to be effective, there must be trust between the police and the people. For there to be trust, it is necessary to strike the best balance at that point of tension, where police can do their jobs in good faith, with the trust of the people, and where citizens will have the maximum amount of respect accorded their individual rights while still giving police the benefit of the doubt. That amounts to a "social contract", and both the police and the individual have rights/needs/responsibilities in order to fulfill that social contract equitably. if either party violates the terms of that contract, then the other party is no longer bound by its terms. The social contract is THAT fragile, and because it is THAT fragile, both parties to it must approach it in good faith.

The Christian Bible (and this is where, as a Christian, I tend to set aside my devotion to Ayn Rand's ideals) tells ME or anyone else who claims to believe its precepts to put the interests of the other individual (but not necessarily all other individuals collectively) ahead of my own in any social transaction. This is amply documented in the entire life, work, and death of Jesus Christ, and backed up by the balance of New Testament scripture. In application, I have to trust that the other party to the transaction is also similarly motivated, AND/OR trust that God is in control of the final disposition of the other's soul, and He will do justice and have vengeance for any injustice done to me and to others. I realize that this is slippery territory, and it is meaningless to anyone who does not share my beliefs.....so I am saying that this is for ME. What this means for ME in the above example of a social transaction of the law enforcement kind is that my starting point is an assumption that the individual officer is someone who A) recognizes the social contract and HIS obligations under it to respect my rights, and B) will use the minimum amount of intrusion into my liberty to accomplish his task, and C) is acting in good faith on A and B. Against that assumption, I agree to be cooperative up to the point where his task begins to unjustly intrude on my liberty. The tension between the two needs I described above interfaces at the point at which the officer's assumptions bump up against my own. I choose to believe that, unless otherwise demonstrated, the officer is a person of good will who is just trying to do his job in good faith. If it costs me nothing to show an ID if asked, or to state my destination if asked, then I will happily comply. On the other hand, if the manner in which it is asked is too aggressive, or compliance will expose me to a liability that isn't rightfully mine, then I will make him work for it.

An awful lot of Texas law seems to hold to the standard of "reasonableness", and this often works to our advantage as CHLs in terms of self-defense law. In the case of a simple request from an officer to see my ID, is officer's request reasonable within the context of what is happening? If I am one of several witnesses to a traffic accident or a crime, and the officer is asking each witness for ID so that he may be contacted at a later date and time for details of what was witnessed, then that is a reasonable request. As a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing that justice is done, and if my testimony is possibly important to that end, then I have a vested interest in showing him my ID when asked for it. On the other hand, if I am walking down the street on my block, minding my own business, and nothing untoward is happening, and a squad car pulls up abreast of me and the officer demands that I stop and show him my ID, I'm likely to ask him what for; and if he can't articulate a clearly legitimate reason and I don't like the answer, then I'm likely to point to my house, and say "I live in that house. These are my keys (holding them up for display), and that is my car parked out in front. I'm going home now. Anything you need to know about me you can get by running my license plate. Have a nice day." I've been a good citizen. I have no outstanding warrants or unpaid parking tickets. In fact, I've never had a warrant at all, and until I create a reason to become know to police, they don't need to know about me. I've never been charged with anything more serious than speeding (in California). I've never been charged or convicted of any crime, of any level, class, or degree, in any state. I've been clean and sober regarding any youthful recreational indiscretions for many decades.

In other words, the degree to which a LEO would find my behavior worthy of further intrusion into my liberty is EXACTLY determined by his willingness to violate the social contract, and to such an officer, I owe nothing. To the officer who honors the contract, I owe everything for helping to keep me and mine and my neighborhood safe and orderly.

That is what I personally mean by being a sovereign citizen. That's me.

Unfortunately, the way I perceive the "sovereign citizen" movement at large is as a bunch of socially immature and inept individuals who do not recognize the existence of any social contract that isn't completely one-sided in their favor. They talk lofty ideals about Constitutionality, without acknowledging that those very same founders whom they worship actually created a society of liberties AND obligations, the recognition of which is the preserver of liberty. Without that recognition, they are ACTUALLY walking on the darker side of anarchy, outside of the (allegedly) enlightened kind of the anarchy proposed by anarchic idealists. In other words, they've never gotten beyond adolescent teen-aged rebellion, and they basically need a good spanking.......and I don't mean that figuratively. I mean that they need to be turned over someone's knee and spanked, literally, until the humiliation of being spanked teaches them a lesson in humility for its own sake.

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:51 am
by Vol Texan
TAM,

I wish you wouldn't be so brief in your replies. Sometimes your brevity leads us to not know fully what your thoughts are.

:biggrinjester:

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 11:55 am
by WildBill
nightmare69 wrote:I don't understand why they feel they have the 'right' to travel in a motor vehicle without a license or insurance.
I don't know much about the sovereign citizen movement, but these are some of my own thoughts.
Travelling without restriction is one of the cornerstones of living in a free country.
I believe that if you go back to the time the constitution was written, the right to travel was "a given".
If anyone suggested licensing riders, horses or needing insurance, they would be viewed as crazy.
As automobile-related fatalities soared in North America, public outcry provoked legislators to begin studying the French and German statutes as models. On August 1, 1910, North America's first licensing law for motor vehicles went into effect in the US state of New York, though it initially applied only to professional chauffeurs. In July 1913, the state of New Jersey became the first to require all drivers to pass a mandatory examination before receiving a license. Quoted from WikiPedia

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:33 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Vol Texan wrote:TAM,

I wish you wouldn't be so brief in your replies. Sometimes your brevity leads us to not know fully what your thoughts are.

:biggrinjester:
.....and I have a LOT of thoughts...... :mrgreen:

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:01 am
by wil
nightmare69 wrote:I don't understand why they feel they have the 'right' to travel in a motor vehicle without a license or insurance.
Because under the motor vehicle code, IF you chase down the definition of what actually constitutes a motor vehicle, your car is not a motor vehicle under current code. It is a very long rabbit hole to chase it down but buried within the code is that truth.
Remember one thing when it comes to the sovereign citizenship status & it's the most important thing you can know to make sense of it. That being, under the law words have meaning but you have to understand the meaning of the word as it applies or is used within the law.
If your car is not a motor vehicle under the real definition of motor vehicle as defined within the code, then what is it?
The closest I could describe it would be a private conveyance and you are traveling in your own private conveyance.

There's a very good video on youtube which covers this very well, I can't find the link to it but it's an ex- police officer who explains all this albeit the video is two hours long. If memory serves me correctly the individuals name is Eddie Craig.
Also to dispell another outright lie, any sovereign who says they are not subject to laws forbidding murder or anyone who claims they say as such is either a liar or does not know what they are talking about. Here's a hint, show me in the constitution where the crime of murder is specifically called out?

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:32 am
by Target1911
I believe that's the YouTube link that Jago posted

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:26 pm
by wil
Target1911 wrote:I believe that's the YouTube link that Jago posted
You are correct, that's the video I was referencing. I'd offer a caution to set aside any issues created by it being set on AJ's site & focus on what that video can teach a person. It is the simplest explanation or example of the entirety of how the law has been perverted, and our original sovereign status as an individual living under common or natural law (that law being the founding documents of this country including the Declaration of Independence, as well as the Constitution and Bill of Rights) has been perverted into something entirely different.

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:32 am
by JSThane
Dangit, TAM, I came back from vacation and saw the thread title, had a whole post ready to write in my head as answer, read through the responses, and realized you'd already written it!

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 6:51 am
by chuck j
Tam nailed the 'Sovereign Citizen" crowd pretty good . They are akin to the Posse Comitatus nutters of the 60's and 70's . Slightly different flavor of crazies that included neo nazi crap with the bible and several other bizarre ideals to claim they had the right to do whatever they wanted to . Nothing but self serving nuts , mainly refused to pay income tax . The Feds hunted down and killed a few of the leaders .

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 8:51 am
by Abraham
Anarchists who want all the benefits without cost.

Worthless trash!

Re: Someone explain the sovereign citizen movement

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:09 am
by BigGuy
A point some people miss is that your drivers license is for using a vehicle on public roads. If you have private roads on private property, you don't need licenses or inspections. You can let a 12-year-old hop into the cab of a doorless bob truck and take off. This isn't untested theory. This is routine on farms all across the county. I have witnessed it personally on farms in southeast Arkansas.

This also applies to "unrestricted" travel. With the exception of a few posted or restricted areas, you can lace up your tennies and go where you want. Knock yourself out. The Government won't stop you.
Now if you expect the government to help you by building nice and easy to use roads, bridging rivers and canyons, or tunneling through mountains, they may apply a few restrictions and requirements to use those. You don't like the restrictions and requirements, no problem. Don't use the roads, bridges, and tunnels. The license isn't for, or about, travel. It never was. It's about using the infrastructure.

As TAM pointed out so much more eloquently than me, the numbskull who claims he doesn't need a license to drive his death trap down a state highway wants the benefits society offers without the obligations.