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Hey, I'd appreciate some input on this question.

Here's the back story..... My next door neighbors are gun owners and good people. He has his CHL (carries an XDS45). His father is very ill, and declining rapidly - which is kind of strange for me because he's only 58 years old because I'm 5 years older than that - and he is considered terminally ill. His medical issue is apparently a badly deteriorated liver with minimal remaining function, and the constant battle with blood toxicity is negatively affecting his mental state, to the point where he is no longer physically able to care for himself or competent to make an decisions about anything. His dad is a gun owner, and because of the father's increasingly wacked out mental state, my neighbor has taken all of his guns away from him, and now his dad is really torqued off at him.

His dad says he doesn't mind losing the other guns, but he wants to keep his shiny S&W .357 magnum for personal defense. But like my neighbor says, he is no longer competent to safely handle a firearm (the last time he took his dad to the range, the RO told him he can't take his dad there any longer, it's not safe).....and there is another person involved, and that is his mom, who takes take of the dad and knows nothing about guns. The guy can't even get out of bed by himself.

He asked me if I thought he had made the right decision by disarming his father.

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I am a strong advocate for not disarming the elderly just because they are frail. But when someone's mental competence is diminished beyond question, it becomes a safety issue for everyone including the person affected - particularly if the person in question is angry all the time, which describes his dad.

I asked him if he had considered maybe trying to find a replica, non-firing copy, of his father's gun to give him to make him feel better, and I asked if he thought his dad would be able to know the difference. He said he didn't think so. He also said he had considered removing the gun's firing pin - it's one of the models that has its firing pin roll-pinned in place in the hammer, and the pin can be removed/replaced. He wanted to know if I thought it would be OK to give his dad the disabled handgun. Again, I asked him if his dad was alert enough to notice the difference, and he said he didn't think so.

I suggested that, if he wants to give the disabled gun to his dad, he ought to first stop by the local PD, explain the situation, and show them the gun; because it would be a terrible thing if the police got called to his dad's house, and in his disturbed mental state, he pointed the disabled gun at the cops.

What do you guys think?

While not a hangun(s), I remember having to take away mom's car keys. At some point, managing by exception becomes justifiable.

Your neighbor simply needs to do what he knows is right, however difficult. It's what honorable folk do.

Peace.

What would be different if the gun were NOT disabled, and the police show up?

We all want to be catered to in our decline, I suppose, made comfortable, etc., but if he is not competent, having access to a gun ought to be a no-no. If he is that disabled physically, what real difference can it make? Sentimentality ought not be stretched past common sense, 4 rules of gun safety, and all that.

My mom knew when it was time to sell her house and move into less demanding quarters, turn in her car keys and sell her car, etc. Some don't and resist giving in to the ravages of decrepitude.

I've done a good bit of thinking about these things as I will face such situations in the near future, with this deteriorating incurable lung disease. Nobody can forecast how it will go, but at some point, having my guns won't help, and may hurt, me or others.

Maybe just having the gun in the home will pacify him, so could your friend perhaps put it in a safe under the bed but not share the combination.

the likelihood is, if he gives it a couple of days, dad will calm down and find something else to think about.

No one likes the idea of having to take away the guns or keys or remove some measure of their parents freedom, but their is a probability that we will all have to face this decision. We all need to consider it.

If I were a responding LEO I wouldn't feel any less threatened by a disabled gun, because that requires an assumption that in fact that is a disabled firearm. This disabled firearm may put the neighbor's father at more risk.

Not long ago I was thinking to offer to give my parents a firearm. They live out in the country. Before I did though, I took my dad out on the land shooting. I clearly saw that he was not going to be attentive enough to safely handle firearms. Decided I'd rather not find out that he had an ND with a firearm from me, so I never gave him one. I struggled with it because I wanted to have him be able to protect himself. The risk was to high of him hurting himself or mom.

Being unable to adhere to firearm safety disqualifies a person from owning one. Just my opinion.

If your friend does go the firing pin route, I would also render the ammunition inert.

Pull the bullets & dump the powder. Put some penetrating oil in the open cases and let them sit upright for a couple of days. Drain the oil, re-seat & crimp the bullets.

The only logical reason for asking to keep his revolver is, sadly, suicide. In his state, keeping firearms around would not matter, not for safety nor comfort. If the son and siblings can keep close and around their dad is more comforting.

To ask that a police officer, any officer, to respond differently if your father points a gun at him and does not comply with his orders forthwith is to ask for disaster. Think how that officer would feel, knowing that he had just blown away some dingy guy whose kid gave him a disabled pistol in the hope that it would give him the illusion of safety. Nope, bad idea from the get-go.

If grandpa, at whatever age, is unable to make sound decisions, then he can not be trusted to exercise good judgement in the blink of an eye and doesn't need a firearm in his hands, not only for his safety, but for his wife and anyone else visiting their residence.

Yeah, it's sad when someone suffers a disability early in life. My dad was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers, so I understand that. My father didn't like it when the keys to his car were taken away, but we did it in as humane way as we possibly could saying over and over "we love you too much to let you hurt yourself, or to hurt someone else." Thankfully, circumstances were that the keys became a side issue shortly after that, but you have to be able to do that. And I expect my son to do the right thing when it's my turn... Be it guns, or a motor vehicle. I may not like it, but....

Pawpaw wrote:If your friend does go the firing pin route, I would also render the ammunition inert.

Pull the bullets & dump the powder. Put some penetrating oil in the open cases and let them sit upright for a couple of days. Drain the oil, re-seat & crimp the bullets.

He has already removed all Ammo from his dad's home.

To the question about police, that is why I suggested to my neighbor that if he was going to go that route, he should make a point of stopping first at the local police station and discuss the situation with them.

I learned a lot about dealing with dangerous things and other hazards with an elderly man.

My dad, who lived 1,000 miles from me, developed serious mental impairment in his later years and was still his smart and aggressive self in some ways.

I did the following by court order, which also forced me to provide 24x7 adult sitters at his house rather than put him in an Alzheimer's unit:
He kept chasing off sitters and I kept replacing them. Some lasted one half day. The agencies that provide them gave up, leaving only 3rd rate candidates.
Take away his car keys, he had others made
Take away his car, he bought another - even without a TX DL which I got canceled by court order (all you need is a statement signed at the car dealer that says you have a driver and get the driver to sign, insurance ? well some companies have non-cancellable policies, they just ramp up the rates)
Take away his shotgun, he goes to the pawn shop and buys another (they will sell to a 90 yr old demented person if the cash is right) Fortunately he was so far gone that he did not know how to load it and had no ammo so pointing at me and the several deputy sheriffs and one city cop and one campus cop was a not a serious event. They don't arrest old confused guys.
Crashed his cars with regularity, even once into a police car - and walked away each time with no trouble (he new that an 85+ year old man is immune from police action in actual practice)

My advice is be as aggressive as possible in making him and his house safe. He will hate you anyway as time goes on for no good reason.
Be sure no neighbor or other relative gets financial control of his estate (this is actually an occupation by some folks).
Do not let him open and close bank accounts or visit the banks daily to verify his balance - eventually they will close his account and give him a check which he will not know what to do with.
Be sure his bills, especially for medical insurance/supplement gets paid.

Do whatever you can to prevent him from hiring a lawyer. Especially if he has significant money. The lawyer and his buddy the judge will run you around until the very end.

I'm going to have to agree with the majority here. It would be safest for all if the father has no access to a firearm wether it disabled or not. We take the car keys away at a certain point in son of our parents lives because they become a hazard to themselves and others this is the same thing. How horrible would your neighbor feel if someone got hurt or died because of hi not wanting to hurt dads feelings.

Pawpaw wrote:If your friend does go the firing pin route, I would also render the ammunition inert.

Pull the bullets & dump the powder. Put some penetrating oil in the open cases and let them sit upright for a couple of days. Drain the oil, re-seat & crimp the bullets.

This is what I was thinking also. I wouldn't try removing the firing pin that's mounted on the hammer because that would be hard for his Dad to miss. Dummy ammo would work because Dad would feel comfortable/safe and his Mom would be safe. Of course, he could use a knife or countless other weapons, but that's another issue.

I wouldn't worry about the primer; let him fire the first round and have a plugged barrel.

Chas.

Based on your description if it was my father I'd have done the same thing. After my father died my mother kept a gun in her nightstand...and old .38 special. She didn't want to train or practice with it and I had my doubts about how competently she could employ it. However, her mental state wasn't an issue and she was not a threat to anyone else. She was living in a big house by herself....in a good neighborhood with no break-ins in over 30 years so far as I know...and knew all her neighbors, some of whom were very helpful. I debated whether she was better or worse off having the gun and honestly don't know either way, but it was her right to have a means of defending herself even if less effectively....and having it gave her some piece of mind.

Up front, there is no right answer...as it's different for all, and likely THE right answer today will need to change as things get worse (or better)

In 2005, I had to deal with with my mother... Suffering from cancerous tumor in her brain that was terminal and increasingly cause mental issues.
She was a long time single mother of two boys, on her own after a separation from a friend she married that got unfriendly after they were married.. Yes she was a difficult woman to live with Im told.

She drove fast cars (quite well, SCCA, several track training sessions, ect), owned guns and was as independent as they come.
I was up to her place in CA for a visit for what was the one and only surgical attempt and direct CHEMO try for the tumor.. Driving her 400+HP Toyota Supra, she turned to me and asked "Am I still driving ok? Don't you dare let me be a grey haired causing problems on the road... when it comes time, you take my keys. My 67 year old Mother was of sound enough mind to know that day was rapidly approaching.. Diagnosis to her death was only 18 months.

8 Weeks later, up for another visit... we needed to go to the store, as was habit I let her drive....we got about halfway to the store, and I told her it was time.... It was not a happy moment.. it was very quiet for the rest of the day... She told me in the morning as I was getting ready to drive back to Oregon.... I needed to take the guns, all of them, pistols, rifles and the shot gun. ... More

I had a call on the way home.... she was found in the community laundry room lost and confused...

She passed away 12 days later.... I think I took from her more than possessions that day.. I think it was her own "switch" it was time to move on.