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A cop grapples with a suspect while trying to make an arrest. Suspect manages to grab his gun and kills him.

Fortunately, most advocates of open carry are such good hand-to-hand fighters that they have no need to worry about anything like this happening to them.

Uh, you are, aren't you?

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/g ... illed.html

Deputy killed with own weapon, suspect found dead
NEW BOSTON, Texas — A Northeast Texas deputy was shot and killed with his own service weapon early Saturday during a scuffle with a suspect, who was later found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, authorities said.

Bowie County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Page was responding to a report of a car running into a telephone poll on a Farm road north of New Boston when he was shot around 1 a.m., authorities said.

After arriving at the accident scene, the deputy saw a man fleeing through a yard and into a thickly wooded area and pursued him. A scuffle apparently ensued in the woods and Page was hit on the head and shot in the upper shoulder, said Bowie County Sheriff James Prince.

Paramedics and officers who had been summoned to the accident found Page trying to walk out of the woods. The deputy died later in the hospital, Prince said.

Shortly after, authorities searched the area for Henry Leon Wakefield III, 36. The manhunt ended hours later when a bloodhound tracked Wakefield to a wooded area near the accident site. He had what investigators believe is a single self-inflicted gun shot wound, authorities said.

Wakefield had been previously been charged with felony assault.

Page, 34, of Redwater, was married and had children. He had been with the sheriff's department for about 3 years and had previously worked as a Texarkana, Texas police officer, Prince said.

"He is a just a wonderful person to be around. He is the type of guy that is always comical, likes to keep people cheered up," Prince said. "I was very fortunate to have him working for me."

The Texas Rangers have been asked to investigate.

New Boston is south of the Arkansas state line and about 25 miles west of Texarkana.
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June 30, 2007 - 11:43 a.m. PDT

Copyright 2007, The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP Online news report may not be published, broadcast or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:A cop grapples with a suspect while trying to make an arrest. Suspect manages to grab his gun and kills him.

Fortunately, most advocates of open carry are such good hand-to-hand fighters that they have no need to worry about anything like this happening to them.

Uh, you are, aren't you?

This guy was a cop responding to a call. Would it have made any difference if he was carrying concealed? A normal citizen carrying openly would not have been in this position. Please forgive me if I misinterpreted your post.

On another note, you brought up a good point in hand to hand combat. I feel you should have more in your "defense toolbox" in case of situations like this and if you find yourself in a position without your carry piece.
This is a question I might poll on another post.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Is it

1. Chasing bad guys is dangerous. Doing so as a civilian should be avoided.
   Cops would be safer if they carried concealed
   Folks won't never get shot with their own guns if they are disarmed

Prayers to Deputy Page and his wife and children.

Prayers for the deputy and his family and friends.

Level II retention at least for open carry.

DSARGE wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:A cop grapples with a suspect while trying to make an arrest. Suspect manages to grab his gun and kills him.

Fortunately, most advocates of open carry are such good hand-to-hand fighters that they have no need to worry about anything like this happening to them.

Uh, you are, aren't you?

This guy was a cop responding to a call. Would it have made any difference if he was carrying concealed? A normal citizen carrying openly would not have been in this position. Please forgive me if I misinterpreted your post.

By nature, a uniformed cop is always assumed to be armed, so whether he was carrying concealed or not would not have made a difference in this case.

But the idea is that if you, as an armed citizen, are carrying openly, by definition your handgun is there for all to see.

So if you are in close proximity to numbers of people whom you don't know, there is a chance that one of them might see your gun and try to snatch it. A struggle for the gun could ensue. Anything could happen.

The smaller, older, or weaker you are, the more likely that someone might be tempted to take a crack at it, and the more chances that they will succeed.

If your handgun is properly concealed, the people around you will not know that you have it, so the above scenario will not happen.

Cops carry openly mostly because they have to. It puts them at increased risk, but it's part of the job and to their credit, they have the courage to accept that risk day in and day out. Once in a while, things turn out badly for them as is the case with the deputy in the linked story.

Armed citizens do not need to carry openly. They do not need to take on the added risk. That being the case, IMO it is foolish to do so.

Prayers for the slain Deputy and his family.

This does not change the fact it is my RIGHT to bear ARMS anyway I choose including open carry!

Once again this is a argument.


Here is the KEY:

frankie_the_yankee wrote: IMO

We all have one. Your title is completely wrong it should NOT be "Open Carry Claims Another Victim" but rather "another criminal" claims another victim.

Thanks Frankie the Y-----. I never really understood why some people are against open carry or what the big deal was. You brought up some great points that I never realized or understood. IMO I feel one should be able to carry any way they want, where and whenever they want as pursuant to 2a, but after reading your post, I realize it DOES make you the FIRST target. I think I'd rather be the anonymous guy in the crowd.

Liberty wrote: I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Is it:

Chasing bad guys is dangerous. Doing so as a civilian should be avoided.

Yup.

Liberty wrote: Cops would be safer if they carried concealed

Nope. Cops' jobs are inherently very dangerous.

Liberty wrote: Folks won't never get shot with their own guns if they are disarmed

???

I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

And that people are much less likely to get shot with their own guns if the people around them don't know they have them - i.e. if they are carrying concealed.

Liberty wrote: Prayers to Deputy Page and his wife and children.

carlson1 wrote:Prayers for the slain Deputy and his family.

This does not change the fact it is my RIGHT to bear ARMS anyway I choose including open carry!

I have no problem with people having the right to open carry under the law. If TX was considering an open carry law, I would support it.

I'm just pointing out that it increases your level of risk.

If you're comfortable with that, fine. Your choice.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly. Would you care to list the most recent five or ten times that criminals seized weapons from non-LEOs?

- Jim

frankie_the_yankee wrote:If you're comfortable with that, fine. Your choice.

That is what I am for. I personally would not carry open or not much at all, but I hate the fact that as gun folks we align our self against the 2nd A. A lot of folks say the 2 A is for hunting. We all know that is wrong. This argument of Open Vs. Concealed should be left behind close doors that way we do not give ammo to the BG - including the crowd that is against us.

All of this rhetoric about the danger of open carry as applied to cops and this incident specifically is pointless unless we know HOW the suspect got the officers gun.

Did he get it FROM the officers holster, or did the officer pull his weapon and get it either taken away, or shot with during a struggle for control of the weapon?

We don't know, do we?

seamusTX wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly. Would you care to list the most recent five or ten times that criminals seized weapons from non-LEOs?

- Jim

"Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly."

Show me an urban area where even 1% of adults on the street carry openly.

The reason I can't cite a lot of cases of non-LEO's having their guns snatched is because most people have more common sense than to put themselves in a position where that might happen.

Prayers for the deputy and his family.



Apparently, the weapon was taken from the deputy during the course of a struggle. The weapon was not "snatched" from him unawares. So, clearly "open carry" is not an issue in this case.....and I suspect you know that too.

Unless you can cite authenticated cases of ordinary citizens (from open carry states) that have had their weapons taken and used against them.....then I remain unimpressed with your assertion.

It does point to one very real need however: Training in weapons retention....and some rudimentary hand to hand skills for those physically capable.

Even if you "start" with your weapon concealed, if the need arises to draw that weapon and you are within 0-10 feet of a determined BG... you might still be disarmed.

Yes, there will always be the occasional nutcase/brazen/unstable...etc person that would attempt "an open carry snatch of your weapon". But until you prove to me that it happens in appreciable numbers, then I think an open carry "option" would be of benefit to many of us.

Just another opinion.

txinvestigator wrote:All of this rhetoric about the danger of open carry as applied to cops and this incident specifically is pointless unless we know HOW the suspect got the officers gun.

Did he get it FROM the officers holster, or did the officer pull his weapon and get it either taken away, or shot with during a struggle for control of the weapon?

We don't know, do we?

You beat me to it.

I'll have to type faster (or less).