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If you NEED more than 5 shots you shouldn't be carrying...
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:41 pm
by Paladin
I think most of us have heard that egotistical line from one gun-shop commando or another. This story is a nice illustration of why more than 5 shots might be required to stop even a single attacker:
Deputy Involved Shooting Incident
One evening in January a Shelby County Deputy Sheriff was involved in a defensive shooting at Houston Levee and Walnut Grove. The deputy stopped to assist what looked like a stranded motorist in a pick-up truck stopped in the roadway. Unfortunately, the truck was occupied by a disturbed individual who was planning to start shooting people shortly. As the deputy approached the truck, the suspect fired a shot from a handgun, hitting the deputy in the chest. The bullet was stopped by the deputy's body armor. The deputy drew his issue Beretta .40 and returned fire with two shots, hitting the suspect with both. The officer then retreated to his patrol car, radioed for help, and reloaded his weapon. The suspect then began moving toward the deputy’s position, so the officer engaged him again, firing seven additional rounds and getting seven additional hits. The suspect finally went down and the incident was finally over. The deputy handled this incident remarkably well and emerged from it unharmed. His performance uderscores a variety of important lessons. Be mentally prepared. Understand that a fight can occur anywhere, any time, without warning. This officer’s start signal was the impact of a bullet on his body armor, but he reacted swiftly and correctly. The deputy fired two controlled, accurate shots, saw the suspect react to them, and the deputy then immediately exited the kill zone. He returned to his patrol car to summon help, then reloaded. IT AIN’T OVER TILL IT’S OVER! By reloading and covering the suspect’s location, the deputy was prepared and ready when the suspect again tried to assault him. Distance and cover gave the deputy a commanding position from which he could engage the threat once more. Careful shooting and multiple hits are required to stop a determined attacker. This officer got nine hits for nine shots, a remarkable achievement in dim light and under fire! He is a member of the Sheriff’s Office pistol team, and his range practice paid big dividends in this incident. The deputy wisely continued to fire until the threat to his life ceased. Several days after this incident the suspect was still alive at the Med, illustrating the relatively low destructive power of handgun bullets. It may take a lot of shots to convince your assailant to quit— Shoot until he does quit! Our congratulations to this deputy on handling a life threatening situation in a competent, professional, and courageous manner.
http://www.rangemaster.com/newsletter/feb2002news.pdf
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:13 pm
by Hamourkiller
Maybe he needs to graduate to a MAGNUM revolver and eliminate the need for nine hits. The last time I checked the .357 125gr Rem hpt was king of one shot stops.
Wonder if he had a long gun in his car and if so, why he did not use this for the second round of shooting?
I am not critisizing his tactics but just wondering.
And very happy he is alive and well!
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:29 pm
by fadlan12
Shot placement being king, where did these 9 shot land? 9 shots in the thigh might have similiar results.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:32 pm
by Mage34
Hamourkiller wrote:Maybe he needs to graduate to a MAGNUM revolver and eliminate the need for nine hits. The last time I checked the .357 125gr Rem hpt was king of one shot stops.
Wonder if he had a long gun in his car and if so, why he did not use this for the second round of shooting?
I am not critisizing his tactics but just wondering.
And very happy he is alive and well!
Long rifle has two meanings.....it is long and the bulet tends to travel a long way.........if he had a shotgun he would have probably would have to take eyes off to get it and that isn't a good idea in this situatuion.....
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:38 pm
by seamusTX
Hamourkiller wrote:Wonder if he had a long gun in his car and if so, why he did not use this for the second round of shooting?
Many departments require long guns to be kept in the trunk or a locking holder. The deputy may not have wanted to take his eyes off the "suspect."
There's a story floating around the Internet about a guy named David Phillips who was attacked by a lunatic with a sword. He literally ran past larger firearms until he "remembered" that he had a .25 pistol in his pocket:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informat ... sp?ID=1758
It's also possible that the deputy could not believe the suspect had been hit and kept coming. I can see reacting that way.
- Jim
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:40 pm
by phddan
Sounds to me like he needs to practice head shots.
Placement, placement, placement.
Dan
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:43 pm
by Xander
Hamourkiller wrote:Maybe he needs to graduate to a MAGNUM revolver and eliminate the need for nine hits. The last time I checked the .357 125gr Rem hpt was king of one shot stops.
Any modern significant caliber has rounds that have impressive one-shot-stop capabilities. *No* hand-fired weapon has a 100% one shot stop record...Not even 12-gauge slugs. The right ammunition in a .357 magnum would potentially give you better penetration of intermediate obstacles than you'll get with a .40, but not necessary better man stopping power given the same hit count and locations. A single failure to stop anecdote is not sufficient to either indict a given caliber as ineffective, or to endorse an arbitrary alternative caliber as effective. He wasn't shot with a .357, so we can't say that he would have stopped, even with 9 rounds in him. If it had taken more than 6...The officer certainly would have been in much bigger trouble than he was, and the situation might have ended very differently.
My cent and a half's worth.
-Xander
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:09 pm
by RubenZ
I'd like to find out where the BG was shoot.
I just can't see someone still alive if all shots were in chest area. It just aint gonna happen.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:18 pm
by Xander
RubenZ wrote:
I just can't see someone still alive if all shots were in chest area. It just aint gonna happen.
Happens all of the time. Reference the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, for example. Platt killed two FBI agents *after* receiving a mortal chest wound at the beginning of the 4 minute gun battle. If he hadn't been shot to death by another FBI agent, he would have bled to death several minutes later. 80% of people who are shot with handguns survive. Many of those are shot in the head or chest.
-Xander
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:46 pm
by Paladin
Hamourkiller wrote:Maybe he needs to graduate to a MAGNUM revolver and eliminate the need for nine hits. The last time I checked the .357 125gr Rem hpt was king of one shot stops.
Wonder if he had a long gun in his car and if so, why he did not use this for the second round of shooting?
I am not critisizing his tactics but just wondering.
And very happy he is alive and well!
Remindes me of a home invasion I read about a few years back. Home invader(with a contact weapon as I recall) was breaking into an occupied house. The man of the house first emptied his 12-gauge at the home invader, then when the home invader got inside the house, the homeowner emptied his .357 revolver into the home invader. The home invader continued to advance towards the homeowner. The homeowner ended up beating the BG down with the empty .357. The key point is that a determined attacker can sustain substantial injuries and still fight on before they die.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:48 pm
by HankB
I'd really like to know what load was used and where the shots impacted . . . I can see a bad guy taking multiple rounds before he goes down, but a perp absorbing
nine hits of .40 and surviving sounds remarkable.
If nothing else, blood loss and tissue damage ought to have caused his expiration shortly after he hit the pavement . . . you'd think so, even if paramedics were already on the scene.
And if you've got time to reload and put an additional 7 rounds in the perp . . . maybe you've got time to put 1 or 2 in his head, instead?
Glad the officer came out on top!
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:53 pm
by Mage34
My dad pulled over a guy a few years back, he was resisting and my dad hit him in the knee with a PR24 at full swing as hard as he could......his knee didn't even swell up for almost 16 hours till the drugs wore off.....luckily a truck driver saw the whole thing, stopped and tackled the guy and helped my dad cuff him.....you would be surprised what drugs will do to a human and what your body can resist or shrug off.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:55 pm
by jbirds1210
HankB wrote:And if you've got time to reload and put an additional 7 rounds in the perp . . . maybe you've got time to put 1 or 2 in his head, instead?
I guess that would depend on the distance and how bad your hands are shaking.
I would not attempt a 20-25 yard head shot with someone shooting back at me unless I had no other choice. If I see blood pouring from the chest....a few more would go nicely with the first nine.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:07 pm
by RubenZ
Xander wrote:RubenZ wrote:
I just can't see someone still alive if all shots were in chest area. It just aint gonna happen.
Happens all of the time. Reference the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, for example. Platt killed two FBI agents *after* receiving a mortal chest wound at the beginning of the 4 minute gun battle. ....
-Xander
I'm not arguing the fact that a guy can't survive after a wound to the chest.
But in this story the guy was hit 9 times! and still was alive after. even at the hospital.
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:17 pm
by Wildscar
RubenZ wrote:Xander wrote:RubenZ wrote:
I just can't see someone still alive if all shots were in chest area. It just aint gonna happen.
Happens all of the time. Reference the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, for example. Platt killed two FBI agents *after* receiving a mortal chest wound at the beginning of the 4 minute gun battle. ....
-Xander
I'm not arguing the fact that a guy can't survive after a wound to the chest.
But in this story the guy was hit 9 times! and still was alive after. even at the hospital.
If the guy was juiced up on drugs like speed or something it could have kept his bodily functions working on over time witch could have been long enough for the EMTs to get there and transport him to the Hospital where they could start pumping more blood to replace what he lost while stitching him back up. That's just one theory.