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Can find any info, but does anyone know if you can conceal carry at Lone Star Park? I know it is prohibited at a race track but does it make a difference if it's a concert? Assuming it doesn't but just wanted to check. thx in advance.

I do not know for sure on this but IMHO I would say its prohibited because of the wagering on off site races.

I'm not aware of an exception if the track is not in use. This is unlike the "sporting event" verbiage, as that specifically states "where a sporting event is taking place". Lone Star Park is a racetrack 24/7 whether or not there is an event. AAC is only off limits when a sporting event is taking place.

At least the way I read it.

RPBrown wrote:I do not know for sure on this but IMHO I would say its prohibited because of the wagering on off site races.

I thought this too, but there isn't any law about places w/ wagering being off limits. (probably because most wagering is illegal in TX)

I think it falls 100% under the racetrack rule though.

The PC language very clearly says sporting "event" and not sporting "venue"... Interesting question.

FYI Texas3006 has only one entry for this location that says they have a 30.06 sign that does not meet minimum size requirements. I was last at LSP back in May.... It was a racing day so no carry. I don't recall seeing any signs.

Carrying a firearm at a racetrack is statutorily prohibited, regardless if a horse race is going on or not. You cannot carry at a racetrack at any time:

"PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED
.
Text of subsection effective until Aug. 1, 2016
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited
weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any
grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational
institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of
a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written
authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early
voting is in progress;
(3) on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court,
unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;
(4) on the premises of a racetrack;
(5) in or into a secured area of an airport; or
(6) within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the
Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article
43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to
be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:
(A) going within 1,000 feet of the premises with a weapon listed under this
subsection was prohibited; or
(B) possessing a weapon listed under this subsection within 1,000 feet of the premises was prohibited

You said a concert. Are you talking about the racetrack or the concert venue that is right next to it? The concert venue is called Verizon Theatre. I don't know if they allow weapons as I haven't been there in quite some time. I would be very surprised if they did, though. However, it is a completely different building from the horse track.

Edited to add: This is from the Verizon Theatre website FAQ.

Weapons:
Guests, including law enforcement personnel, not present in an official capacity, are prohibited from bringing weapons into the theatre. Verizon Theatre does not provide weapon lockers. Weapons may not be checked in at Guest Services. Weapons include, but are not limited to, the following: Firearms, explosives, stun guns, handcuffs, brass knuckles, sticks, clubs, batons, martial arts instruments, pepper spray, tear gas, and knives. Guests found in possession of the above-mentioned items will be asked to remove the item from the theatre or dispose of it. Guests who refuse to comply will be ejected from the theatre and may be subject to arrest.

So dug a little more. Here's what I turned up:

Verizon Theatre is owned by the City of Grand Prairie. This should prohibit them from posting the theater and prohibiting licensed carry. They probably have signs up anyway, but I haven't gone by to check.

There is a TABC entry at that location for Wolfgang Puck Catering. I'm sure this is the bar in the venue. They are a Red sign location. While the bar makes more than 51% of its revenue from alcohol sold by the glass, I'm quite sure that Verizon Theatre does not.

Undoubtedly, the venue will hide behind the 51% prohibition from the bar to prohibit carry in the entire building. This method has been used in many other locations. This needs to be stopped in the next legislative session.

LucasMcCain wrote:You said a concert. Are you talking about the racetrack or the concert venue that is right next to it? The concert venue is called Verizon Theatre. I don't know if they allow weapons as I haven't been there in quite some time. I would be very surprised if they did, though. However, it is a completely different building from the horse track.

Edited to add: This is from the Verizon Theatre website FAQ.

Weapons:
Guests, including law enforcement personnel, not present in an official capacity, are prohibited from bringing weapons into the theatre. Verizon Theatre does not provide weapon lockers. Weapons may not be checked in at Guest Services. Weapons include, but are not limited to, the following: Firearms, explosives, stun guns, handcuffs, brass knuckles, sticks, clubs, batons, martial arts instruments, pepper spray, tear gas, and knives. Guests found in possession of the above-mentioned items will be asked to remove the item from the theatre or dispose of it. Guests who refuse to comply will be ejected from the theatre and may be subject to arrest.

Thanks and you're correct, it is the verizon theatre not the racetrack so sorry to all for that oversight. I think the information you posted from the website answers the question.

Well it's LEGAL to carry at Verizon Theater for a concert, but if they physically prevent you from entering there may not be a lot you can do about it.

ScottDLS wrote:Well it's LEGAL to carry at Verizon Theater for a concert, but if they physically prevent you from entering there may not be a lot you can do about it.

Do you think it would be worth reporting to the AG, or do you think the 51% issue would make it a moot point? I'm certainly close enough to go by and get pictures if they have signs up.

My concern is that it doesn't matter, since the address is listed as a TABC red sign location. We both know that's bunk, since the actual venue makes way more money from ticket sales and parking than they do alcohol, but I doubt we'll have much luck with that argument currently.

LucasMcCain wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:Well it's LEGAL to carry at Verizon Theater for a concert, but if they physically prevent you from entering there may not be a lot you can do about it.

Do you think it would be worth reporting to the AG, or do you think the 51% issue would make it a moot point? I'm certainly close enough to go by and get pictures if they have signs up.

My concern is that it doesn't matter, since the address is listed as a TABC red sign location. We both know that's bunk, since the actual venue makes way more money from ticket sales and parking than they do alcohol, but I doubt we'll have much luck with that argument currently.

That's a good question. Let's say the licensee is a 51% permit. You then get into the 46.035 definition of the "premises" vs. the TABC definition. TABC goes by the map of where the alcohol is allowed to be taken...perhaps most of the theater. However the law that makes it illegal to carry in a 51% (46.035) defines the crime AS:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

It defines "premises" as:

(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

So here's my point of view. In 46.035 the premises (of a place that....51%....) is the BUILDING or PORTION OF BUILDING THAT IS FOR SELLING ....51%....under a TABC license. The whole theater is not licensed, the alcohol seller is....You can consume the alcohol anywhere in the theater that's on the TABC license map, but that doesn't make the whole theater the "premises" OF THE ALCOHOL LICENSEE. At the state fair there are many booths that are 51% and you can take your beer anywhere in the park (pretty much). But the whole park is not a licensee. Now with the Fair you have the situation that most of it is outdoors and not in a building, but take AA Center or Cowboys Stadium for example. There are numerous 51% licensees throughout these venues yet I've never heard that as the argument to keep out carry, because in the case of AA center or Cowboys (AT&T) stadium, none of these venues make over 51%.

The summary of my argument is:

Premises for the purposes of carrying is specifically defined in Texas PC 46.035, and it means..."building or portion of a building"...of the business (alcohol seller) NOT the TABC "premises" where alcohol sold there may be taken.

ScottDLS wrote:So here's my point of view. In 46.035 the premises (of a place that....51%....) is the BUILDING or PORTION OF BUILDING THAT IS FOR SELLING ....51%....under a TABC license. The whole theater is not licensed, the alcohol seller is.

I disagree with one major point in your analysis. The legal status is that the whole theater is the licensed premise. The license is issued to cover an address, making the whole building the licensed premise. Proof of this is that it is illegal to remove the alcoholic beverage from the licensed premise. Ergo, if you can take the drink there, it is part of the premises.

There is an interesting argument in what constitutes premises. You, and others, have correctly pointed out that the Alcoholic Beverage Code defines premises differently than the Penal Code. You would get charged under the Penal Code where the premises definition does not include the lot or sidewalk, even if the ABC definition does. If the theater is an open air type of venue, you might have an argument that you were not in a building. This argument helps explain why you can carry around the fair without worrying. You are not in a building, generally.

Personally, I do not recommend relying on this definition, but the wording of the law does support it. I don't recommend it because of all of the old case law that supported people getting felony unlawfully carrying charges in the parking lot of bars. While the laws have changed, I do not always trust the courts to not rely on case law. The courts call this principle "Stare Decisis", which is a Latin term for "we were wrong before and we will stay wrong."

srothstein wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:So here's my point of view. In 46.035 the premises (of a place that....51%....) is the BUILDING or PORTION OF BUILDING THAT IS FOR SELLING ....51%....under a TABC license. The whole theater is not licensed, the alcohol seller is.

I disagree with one major point in your analysis. The legal status is that the whole theater is the licensed premise. The license is issued to cover an address, making the whole building the licensed premise. Proof of this is that it is illegal to remove the alcoholic beverage from the licensed premise. Ergo, if you can take the drink there, it is part of the premises.

There is an interesting argument in what constitutes premises. You, and others, have correctly pointed out that the Alcoholic Beverage Code defines premises differently than the Penal Code. You would get charged under the Penal Code where the premises definition does not include the lot or sidewalk, even if the ABC definition does. If the theater is an open air type of venue, you might have an argument that you were not in a building. This argument helps explain why you can carry around the fair without worrying. You are not in a building, generally.

Personally, I do not recommend relying on this definition, but the wording of the law does support it. I don't recommend it because of all of the old case law that supported people getting felony unlawfully carrying charges in the parking lot of bars. While the laws have changed, I do not always trust the courts to not rely on case law. The courts call this principle "Stare Decisis", which is a Latin term for "we were wrong before and we will stay wrong."

The licensed "premises" for consuming the purchased drink is defined in the TABC law and conforms to the license map. But the 46.035 definition is defining the premises differently, and if that's what you're being charged under, that's where the prosecution needs to prove the elements of the crime. In the case of a sidewalk or parking lot, it's specifically excluded in the 46.035 definition. You won't be charged under 46.02 because your license exempts you from it.
For the building or "portion of a building" that represents the "premises" of the 51% licensee UNDER 46.035, I'm going to argue that it is not defined by the TABC map, but by the 46.035 definition...A definition that did not exist in the prior cases where someone was successfully prosecuted under 46.02 rendering the "stare decis" argument not relevant to prosecution under a new statute (46.035). I am more hesitant to test this theory, but one could argue some support from the AG opinion regarding portions of a courthouse not used for court activities. And if that definition should fail, another point is that many of these large venues with small licensees do not post 51%, or if they do only in the licensee location where virtually no one who is not buying a drink can see it.

I have no problem testing my theory at an outdoor location, and I have by carrying at the Fair. Prior to 30.06 and before the exclusion for publicly owned property, the Fair used 51% signs to bar entry, in my opinion illegitimately, as 46.02 did not change, so if you could have been prosecuted then, you could now.

I'm not telling people to rely on this, but if someone enters the Fair with multiple 51% booths, or a courthouse relying on the AG opinion, they are already doing it, so I want to point that out.

So perhaps we would do well to file a complaint on them and see if they then fall back on the 51% argument? That would at least serve as an example to point to of the need to clarify the law with regards to a licensed alcohol vender inside of another business. Although I really think the 51% system just needs to be abolished, but I'm not sure that one will fly currently. I will try to get by this week and see if they have signs posted.