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While taking a 2-day course from a guy outside of Weatherford last year, he had a camera crew come out and shoot some video. I'd forgotten about it, since it was last year and they weren't there long, and we were all pretty much into what we were doing.

Anyway, I went back to check something on the trainer's web site today, and lo and behold, there I am (along with the rest of the class) in the video!

Check it out here:
http://fundamentaldefense.com/defensivefocusshooting/

Where's Waldo?

BTW, I was impressed with the guy and the course if anyone is interested. He's a Rob Pincus protégé if that tells you anything.

(Disclaimer: I have no ties to the guy at all, just took his course last year. Never saw him before or since.)

Is Waldo wearing a black shirt, shoots everything in the 10-ring, and gets a back-of-head close-up at 51 seconds?

Ok, gotta ask. What in heaven's name is going on with that throwing the hands up move before drawing from the holster? Does Pincus teach that?

Bitter Clinger wrote:Ok, gotta ask. What in heaven's name is going on with that throwing the hands up move before drawing from the holster? Does Pincus teach that?

Ditto. That just looks really strange to be throwing the hands up - and not tactically advantageous. But need more information.

Skiprr wrote:Is Waldo wearing a black shirt, shoots everything in the 10-ring, and gets a back-of-head close-up at 51 seconds?

Nope, not Waldo. That guy was good, though. He said he shoots a lot of competition and takes training like this frequently. It showed.

But, the guy who was by far the best shooter of the group (not me ) was the tall skinny guy wearing the black and white #48 jersey. That boy kept all his shots, shooting as fast as he could pull the trigger, in a group about the size of your fist. Three yards away or 20 yards away, didn't matter. He said he didn't compete, just like to shoot - a lot, apparently. He was a 26 year old high school band director.

"Waldo" is the big, old gray haired guy with the long sleeve red shirt and black cap. You can tell it's me, because I'm usually a little behind on the draw! But hey, it take a while to get that ol' .45 moving!

thatguyoverthere wrote: But, the guy who was by far the best shooter of the group (not me ) was the tall skinny guy wearing the black and white #48 jersey. That boy kept all his shots, shooting as fast as he could pull the trigger, in a group about the size of your fist. Three yards away or 20 yards away, didn't matter. He said he didn't compete, just like to shoot - a lot, apparently. He was a 26 year old high school band director.

That guy was so tall that when he extended out he was 2 feet closer to the target than anyone else!

Bitter Clinger wrote:Ok, gotta ask. What in heaven's name is going on with that throwing the hands up move before drawing from the holster? Does Pincus teach that?

Yeahhhhh, about that...

That IS a Pincus thing. Pincus' say that he has studied videos of many, many SD shootings and that he has observed that everyone exhibits some kind of "startle" reflex upon first hearing gunshots or suddenly seeing something that presents an obvious and immediate danger (like a guy coming at you with a gun or knife). He further states that for the vast, vast majority of people, "startle" reflex is to throw your hands up in front of you face or upper body. You may not have noticed, but part of his same theory is that as you are startled, you will also square up your body to the perceived threat, hence the square foot stance, instead of an offset stance (Weaver or such). So Pincus' idea, from a training standpoint, is that he wants you to learn to come into action (draw your weapon) from where your hands and feet would be in a real, life or death shooting situation.

It felt really weird at first, especially the hand thing. But you got used to it pretty quick.

Pincus is also big on the "combat accuracy" idea as opposed to precision placement of shots. Basically, that is that a fast shot anywhere in the upper chest area is better than more time for a high precision shot exactly where you want to put it, based on the fact that if you take that much time to make a precision shot, you may already be dead. That's why in the close-ups of some of the targets, you see the shots pretty spread out, even from just 3 or 4 yards away.

Other than a couple seemingly odd-ball things like that (which actually may be right - I don't know), I thought it was a really good course. Lot of fun, went through a lot of drills. Went through about 800 rounds of .45!

The guy that taught it (can't remember his name right now, but you could get it from his web-site, I'm sure) was a good teacher, too. Very low key, very serious, no nonsense, no screaming or hollering, no unnecessary cussing. Fairly young guy (probably early 30's), former Army captain.

If the training was intended to teach thwarting a close attack, i.e. knife, club etc. before drawing and shooting I can understand as it is doubtful anyone has time to draw AND shoot if your attacker has gotten very close to you. But that is why situational awareness and training for close and not so close attacks are important and not to rely on any single tactic. What works in one scenario may not work in another.

Just my .02 worth.

thatguyoverthere wrote:

Bitter Clinger wrote:Ok, gotta ask. What in heaven's name is going on with that throwing the hands up move before drawing from the holster? Does Pincus teach that?

Yeahhhhh, about that...

That IS a Pincus thing. Pincus' say that he has studied videos of many, many SD shootings and that he has observed that everyone exhibits some kind of "startle" reflex upon first hearing gunshots or suddenly seeing something that presents an obvious and immediate danger (like a guy coming at you with a gun or knife). He further states that for the vast, vast majority of people, "startle" reflex is to throw your hands up in front of you face or upper body. You may not have noticed, but part of his same theory is that as you are startled, you will also square up your body to the perceived threat, hence the square foot stance, instead of an offset stance (Weaver or such). So Pincus' idea, from a training standpoint, is that he wants you to learn to come into action (draw your weapon) from where your hands and feet would be in a real, life or death shooting situation.

It felt really weird at first, especially the hand thing. But you got used to it pretty quick.

Pincus is also big on the "combat accuracy" idea as opposed to precision placement of shots. Basically, that is that a fast shot anywhere in the upper chest area is better than more time for a high precision shot exactly where you want to put it, based on the fact that if you take that much time to make a precision shot, you may already be dead. That's why in the close-ups of some of the targets, you see the shots pretty spread out, even from just 3 or 4 yards away.

Other than a couple seemingly odd-ball things like that (which actually may be right - I don't know), I thought it was a really good course. Lot of fun, went through a lot of drills. Went through about 800 rounds of .45!

The guy that taught it (can't remember his name right now, but you could get it from his web-site, I'm sure) was a good teacher, too. Very low key, very serious, no nonsense, no screaming or hollering, no unnecessary cussing. Fairly young guy (probably early 30's), former Army captain.

Shooting from a startle reflex is at least as old as Fairbairn & Sykes. It's about the head and shoulders and crouch, not so much the hands - which are easily trained to go the step 1 of a draw.

"Combat accuracy" is a result, not a goal. Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate.

Nice film.

OlBill wrote:Shooting from a startle reflex is at least as old as Fairbairn & Sykes. It's about the head and shoulders and crouch, not so much the hands - which are easily trained to go the step 1 of a draw.

"Combat accuracy" is a result, not a goal. Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate.

Nice film.

Not to try to speak for Pincus, but if I get what he says in his videos and books, and what his protégé was saying in this training course I took, I think he is trying to just get the student to move from the startled position and directly into the shooting position. I agree that a person is going to probably have some kind of reaction, and that reaction may be to instinctively throw up your hands. But, with all due respect to Pincus, I did then and still do now question the wisdom of actually "training in" that initial reflex that may or may not occur in that way.

And again, my apologies to Pincus if I misunderstood, but I think he would agree that "combat accuracy" is a result of a self defense shooting. But I think his reasoning for teaching "combat accuracy" is to try to overcome what many (or most?) shooters learned initially, and that is very slow, deliberate aiming for marksmanship. His idea is to force you to shoot faster (up to a point), intentionally giving up (some) accuracy in order to get effective shots off before the threat has a chance to get his shots off toward you!

Thanks again OlBill, I'll definitely look up the info you provided!

(Edited to insert omitted word!)

Jeff Cooper had some thought on the subject as well.