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TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:40 am
by locke_n_load
Anyone know of the definition or case law for "and with force entered"? Does it mean they had to break something to get in? Or is turning a door knob/pulling a car door handle considered "force"? Is only walking through an open door considered not using force?
I know you could still be found reasonable by a jury if someone attempted to open your car door (let's say unlocked) and you used force to deter them under 9.31 (a) without the subsections, but you might not have the automatic "presumed reasonable" defense.
Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:59 am
by switch
My understanding is they have to take some action, ie. open a door, if it was wide open and they walked in, it would not include 'with force'.
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:07 am
by apostate
That's my understanding as well. Force is not limited to violent force and includes force in the sense of Newton's second law of motion.
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:58 pm
by kg5ie
apostate wrote:That's my understanding as well. Force is not limited to violent force and includes force in the sense of Newton's second law of motion.
Talked this over with local Police Chief. His opinion was that the turning of the door knob constituted force. Walking in through open door does not.
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:16 pm
by locke_n_load
kg5ie wrote:apostate wrote:That's my understanding as well. Force is not limited to violent force and includes force in the sense of Newton's second law of motion.
Talked this over with local Police Chief. His opinion was that the turning of the door knob constituted force. Walking in through open door does not.
Hmm. I know police are not always the most knowledgeable on the specifics of the law, but I do agree, but I wish there was something more concrete here.
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:16 am
by cmgee67
I am NOT giving legal advice but I would say turning a door knob or opening your car door would be considered a use of force. They are obviously attempting to enter by opening whatever said door to get into where you are. After that it would be up to you to determine what, where, and why they are attempting to gain access and what force to counter with. Wether it be hey what are you doing? To HEY! You do not want the wrath of a thousand monkeys that I am about to unleash upon you!!
Re: TPC CH9 Use of Force
Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:01 am
by Liberty
locke_n_load wrote:
Hmm. I know police are not always the most knowledgeable on the specifics of the law, but I do agree, but I wish there was something more concrete here.
Locking the doors is the best insurance against uncertainty. The turning of a knob being force is based on traditions, common law, and case law. Not really defined in the law.
What do I know though, I'm not a lawyer.