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I know that if I buy a gun from a dealer, I have to fill out the ATF paperwork. But if I sell a gun to a dealer, does he or she have to fill out the ATF paperwork?

Crash

If it is for the personal collection I do not think so, but the ATF has been known to 'discover' new interpretations of the law so some dealers might protect themselves by logging it into their bound book and doing a 4473 to transfer it to themselves. If the firearm is purchased for their business they have to log it into their bound book.

If he is going to sell it then it just goes into his A&D books just like any other acquisition.

If someone is personally licensed as an FFL then they can't do private transactions. If they own a company or are a responsible person of a company that's licensed, then they can do private transactions that don't involve that company. But just like anyone else, if they transfer enough firearms in a personal capacity in a pattern where the ATF thinks it's dealing, then the ATF could bring charges.

Also, clarify what you mean by "ATF paperwork." An FFL doesn't fill out a 4473 to buy a gun. They just get the seller's ID and put that info along with the gun's info in their bound book. No background check is required; they already had one before they were issued their FFL.

CleverNickname wrote:If someone is personally licensed as an FFL then they can't do private transactions. If they own a company or are a responsible person of a company that's licensed, then they can do private transactions that don't involve that company. But just like anyone else, if they transfer enough firearms in a personal capacity in a pattern where the ATF thinks it's dealing, then the ATF could bring charges.

Technically the ATF could bring charges no matter what one does. They don't need evidence of wrong doing to bring charges, but they would need evidence to prove that one was in the business of buying and selling guns to convict an unlicensed individual of a crime.

The only way to guarantee that you avoid "the ride" in this and any other case is to be dead. Everything else you do or don't do is just changing the odds of a false charge.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

CleverNickname wrote:If someone is personally licensed as an FFL then they can't do private transactions. If they own a company or are a responsible person of a company that's licensed, then they can do private transactions that don't involve that company. But just like anyone else, if they transfer enough firearms in a personal capacity in a pattern where the ATF thinks it's dealing, then the ATF could bring charges.

Technically the ATF could bring charges no matter what one does. They don't need evidence of wrong doing to bring charges, but they would need evidence to prove that one was in the business of buying and selling guns to convict an unlicensed individual of a crime.

The only way to guarantee that you avoid "the ride" in this and any other case is to be dead. Everything else you do or don't do is just changing the odds of a false charge.

In case anyone is curious, the rule is that you need a FFL license if you are engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. More guidance is provided by the ATF here. https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

Note that this is not a black and white determination.

If Joe sells Bob his old shotgun for $200, it is technically income......but he's not "in the business"......does the ATF consider him to "be in the business"?

The Annoyed Man wrote:If Joe sells Bob his old shotgun for $200, it is technically income......but he's not "in the business"......does the ATF consider him to "be in the business"?

Depends on which day it crosses the ATF's desk. Generally, no. But if Joe buys multiple guns a month and continuously flips them, Joe could be in trouble.

The Annoyed Man wrote:If Joe sells Bob his old shotgun for $200, it is technically income......but he's not "in the business"......does the ATF consider him to "be in the business"?

From the ATF's guide that I linked to above:

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and
sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,
if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal
collection, you do not need to be licensed.

Of course, if you want to avoid the possibility of a "ride", then don't ever sell any guns. You probably also should never own any in the first place.