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East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:53 am
by bblhd672
East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
The East Texas State Fair will not allow open carry guns this year at the East Texas State Fair. However, concealed carry will still be permitted provided the subject has a valid CCW license."
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/local ... -595914822
While Sykes says they do reserve the right to prevent concealed carry, fairgoers may carry guns concealed as long as they have a CCW.
"I’ve learned that maybe we are violating the rights of others too much when you already have a license to carry concealed," Sykes said. "So we have decided to go ahead and allow that to happen."
Maybe violating rights? Is the property the fair is being held owned by the city, county, state?
How nice of you to allow the most law abiding Texans to grace your presence while exercising our rights.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:00 am
by Jusme
bblhd672 wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:53 am
East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
The East Texas State Fair will not allow open carry guns this year at the East Texas State Fair. However, concealed carry will still be permitted provided the subject has a valid CCW license."
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/local ... -595914822
While Sykes says they do reserve the right to prevent concealed carry, fairgoers may carry guns concealed as long as they have a CCW.
"I’ve learned that maybe we are violating the rights of others too much when you already have a license to carry concealed," Sykes said. "So we have decided to go ahead and allow that to happen."
Maybe violating rights? Is the property the fair is being held owned by the city, county, state?
How nice of you to allow the most law abiding Texans to grace your presence while exercising our rights.
(Facepalm)
They still don't get it. If the fair is on property, owned, or leased, by the County, they cannot prohibit OC, either. He acts like he is "granting" permission, to "his" fair. Not that I would OC, in a large crowded, area, but, they are still violating rights.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 am
by ScottDLS
Jusme wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:00 am
bblhd672 wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:53 am
East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
The East Texas State Fair will not allow open carry guns this year at the East Texas State Fair. However, concealed carry will still be permitted provided the subject has a valid CCW license."
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/local ... -595914822
While Sykes says they do reserve the right to prevent concealed carry, fairgoers may carry guns concealed as long as they have a CCW.
"I’ve learned that maybe we are violating the rights of others too much when you already have a license to carry concealed," Sykes said. "So we have decided to go ahead and allow that to happen."
Maybe violating rights? Is the property the fair is being held owned by the city, county, state?
How nice of you to allow the most law abiding Texans to grace your presence while exercising our rights.
(Facepalm)
They still don't get it. If the fair is on property, owned, or leased, by the County, they cannot prohibit OC, either. He acts like he is "granting" permission, to "his" fair. Not that I would OC, in a large crowded, area, but, they are still violating rights.
No surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:26 am
by troglodyte
The East Texas Fair Grounds and the Harvey Convention Center are owned by the City of Tyler per the Smith Central Appraisal District.
The Park of East Texas, Inc. is a non-profit 501(c)(3) and the parent company of the East Texas State Fair and Academic Rodeo. https://www.etstatefair.com/p/about/our-mission
Fair Grounds Online Map for Reference
https://imgur.com/a/uNWPwjC
https://imgur.com/a/HQbmtjx
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
by BBYC
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:02 pm
by Abraham
Perhaps, an unafraid of being arrested for OCing attorney will give it a whirl...though I doubt it.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:09 pm
by RogueUSMC
bblhd672 wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:53 am
East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
The East Texas State Fair will not allow open carry guns this year at the East Texas State Fair. However, concealed carry will still be permitted provided the subject has a valid CCW license."
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/local ... -595914822
While Sykes says they do reserve the right to prevent concealed carry, fairgoers may carry guns concealed as long as they have a CCW.
"I’ve learned that maybe we are violating the rights of others too much when you already have a license to carry concealed," Sykes said. "So we have decided to go ahead and allow that to happen."
Maybe violating rights? Is the property the fair is being held owned by the city, county, state?
How nice of you to allow the most law abiding Texans to grace your presence while exercising our rights.
A 'CCW'? Are these people from Texas?
And the same license covers both so what is their point??
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:35 pm
by PriestTheRunner
RogueUSMC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:09 pm
bblhd672 wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:53 am
East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
The East Texas State Fair will not allow open carry guns this year at the East Texas State Fair. However, concealed carry will still be permitted provided the subject has a valid CCW license."
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/local ... -595914822
While Sykes says they do reserve the right to prevent concealed carry, fairgoers may carry guns concealed as long as they have a CCW.
"I’ve learned that maybe we are violating the rights of others too much when you already have a license to carry concealed," Sykes said. "So we have decided to go ahead and allow that to happen."
Maybe violating rights? Is the property the fair is being held owned by the city, county, state?
How nice of you to allow the most law abiding Texans to grace your presence while exercising our rights.
A 'CCW'? Are these people from Texas?
And the same license covers both so what is their point??
They are backtracking from their original no guns at all stance.
I'll try and find a internet-cached copy of their original statement. It was way past clear that they intended to ban all firearms (CC included) and it blew up in their face.
Here it is: Scroll down to "Original Story"
https://tylerpaper.com/
ORIGINAL STORY:
The East Texas State Fair has new safety and security regulations in place this year to prevent potentially hazardous items from entering the fairgrounds. "We're seeing boosted security at every public event," said John Sykes, president and CEO of The Park of East Texas Inc. "The fact that the fair has 20,000 people there we felt we had to pay attention and make some changes." The new rules are part of an effort to keep visitors safe and are similar to rules set by other events, stadiums and fairgrounds across the state and nation, according to information from the fair. Fair security officials will use metal detector wands and conduct searches of bags to help enforce the new rules.
In addition, the East Texas State Fair has a working partnership with the Tyler Police Department. The security effort at the fair is enhanced through the use of security cameras and armed security officers who actively monitor the area. Items prohibited at the fair include firearms, knives or other weapons, tobacco, alcohol, illegal drugs, oversize bags, ice chests, coolers, pets, obscene material, unauthorized marketing, drones, hoverboards and nonpermitted golf carts.
Cody Ray Rosenbalm
"We used to allow people to concealed carry firearms, but this year we are not allowing guns or knives," Sykes said. "We just don't think the fair is a place for weapons. There will be signs at the entrance telling people about the prohibited items."
Fair officials are asking the public not to bring any of these items to the event as guests possessing these items will not be admitted into the fairgrounds. "Human beings have different degrees of what obscenity is," Sykes said. "Nudity and clothing with obscene images will not be permitted. Officials may ask people to turn a shirt inside out or to put on a different piece of clothing." Sykes said fair officials understand that people have freedom of speech, but would like everyone to be respectful of other fairgoers.
Tobacco is a prohibited item, but officials understand that making the fair a truly nonsmoking venue would be difficult.
Sykes said officials want smokers to be respectful around others and pick up their cigarette butts.
Large bags will be subject to being searched. This includes backpacks, drawstring bags, large purses, diaper bags and tote bags.
Registered service animals and other items related to medical conditions are allowed.
"This is the fair management and the board of directors making sure the fair is safe," Sykes said. "The Tyler ISD's new rules for Rose Stadium were a great incentive for us to get this started."
The 103rd annual East Texas State Fair begins Friday and runs through Sept. 30. Visit etstatefair.com for more information.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:46 pm
by ScottDLS
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:29 pm
by RogueUSMC
PriestTheRunner wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:35 pm
ORIGINAL STORY:
...snip...The Tyler ISD's new rules for Rose Stadium were a great incentive for us to get this started....snip...
What does statutory rules governing an area have to do with their fair policy?
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:07 pm
by Jusme
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
I never quite understood the entire gist, of that opinion Charles. He used the term "arms length" to describe the relationship. To me, and I have no serious legal training, that would mean, that other, than owning the property, the governing body, would provide, no other service, or role, in the day to day, business. But if they are using, LEO, as security, the governing body, is still paying insurance, and electric bill for example, doesn't that take them out of the "arms length" situation?
If I recall, the opinion, was in response, to a non-profit, renting/leasing a building, and took on all of the responsibilities, of maintenance, and upkeep, and the governing body, played no role, other than to collect rent.
And since there are still a lot of lessors, who rent government buildings, like convention centers, etc, who then post 30.06 signs, does that only extend to non-profits?
I would appreciate any clarification.
thanks,
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:05 pm
by ScottDLS
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
The opinion said that the city could not be held liable for signs posted by the non-profit for the purposes of the fines in 411.209. It additionally suggested that a person violating such a sign would be unlikely to be found guilty of a 30.06/7 violation. It also discussed the civil authority of the non-profit to exclude people.
I can already claim to be a “test case” for ATT stadium. I was physically prevented from entering the stadium armed for a non scholastic non professional sporting event after passing a 30.06 sign posted on the government (City of Arlington) owned property. I was not arrested or charged after my firearm was discovered. I took it back to the car and entered the event without it.
The effect of the referenced opinion is apparently that any private entity may bar your entry or eject you from government owned property for carrying openly or concealed, if you are discovered. Presumably the State Fair Association could do the same for concealed carry, though they choose not to, or were forced not to some years ago.
What might make an interesting “test case” would be to enter the fair concealed and then expose your holstered firearm. Since the Dallas Police seem to provide the security for the Fair, I wonder if they would be the ones to eject you. This would seem somewhat contrary to the spirit of 411.209, but I expect that would be exactly what would happen.
It’s clear that the authorities in many areas of Texas will not allow lawful open carry on public owned property and there is nothing to be done about it. I don’t volunteer to be the proverbial “test case”, but I’d love to see it on YouTube.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:54 pm
by ninjabread
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
In KP-0108, the TX AG seemed pretty clear he thinks fines for signs don't apply if a non-profit with offices in a building on government property posted 30.06 at their offices. However, he was equally clear that subsections 30.06(e) and 30.07(e) of the Penal Code still apply, in his opinion.
The plain language of subsections 30.06(e) and 30.07(e) make an exception if the property on which the license holder carries a gun "is owned or leased by a governmental entity." TEX. PENAL CODE§§ 30.06(e), .07(e). These statutes make no exception to that exception for property owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity, and to conclude that carrying a handgun on such property is prohibited would therefore require reading language into the statute beyond what the Legislature included.
It seems they're still prohibiting open carry by good guys but now allowing concealed carry, so fines for signs wouldn't apply anyway.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:10 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:05 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
The opinion said that the city could not be held liable for signs posted by the non-profit for the purposes of the fines in 411.209. It additionally suggested that a person violating such a sign would be unlikely to be found guilty of a 30.06/7 violation. It also discussed the civil authority of the non-profit to exclude people.
Correct and I'm not saying the LTC would lose. In fact, I don't think a conviction would stand up on appeal. My point is that being a test case on that point is likely to be expensive. Test cases must involve a conviction and appeal. Otherwise there is no established case law.
Chas.