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In the LEO Contact forum, there is a post from one member that saw some plainclothes officers open carry.

Steve_d_64 and I were about to start a discussion on preparatory actions, but I did not want to hijack that thread (or miss someone who does not read that part of the board).

In the specific case we were discussing, the person had his weapon concealed under his shirt and started to put his hand there and move the shirt when he saw the weapons, relaxing when he realized the men were officers.

I, probably based on my training, tend to take more actions of this type to get ready than many of you. Some people think there should be no preparatory action which might tend to advertise your carrying. I would think it is reasonable to expect you to get ready if something might go down, but I also see the point of how it could be taken.

So, how many of you would start getting ready to draw if necessary, even if not yet actually uncovering the weapon? What do you all think of this type of actions to be ready for trouble? I am not asking about hunting for trouble or drawing before there is a threat to you, but about getting ready for things to possibly go bad, if getting ready might lead to someone knowing you are carrying.

I was a Texas State Trooper for a number of years, a long time ago, and I have seen a lot of officers in street clothes with open carry handguns. Expecially in in the hotter months, and I have not really ever been concerned. Often, I just assume folks so equipped are officers even if I cannot see badges. When I was a trooper in South Texas, we even worked with FBI and other federal officers without their coats and that was NEVER done in those days.

My first reaction would be to assume they are officers. Now if they were engaging in suspicious or threatening activities or didn't "look" like officers, I would modify my assumption.

Personally, I think it would be prudent, in the presence of a reasonably potential threat to check and adjust. This can be done discreetly without attracting attention. Frankly, so many of us "adjust" even if we are not carrying. Getting out of a car, we pull up our pants, tuck in our shirts on a regular basis. That is just part of folks getting in and out of a car and I don't think that draws a lot of attention.

In the case of a slightly more immediate threat, perhaps taking a more agressive posture and even drawing attention to the potential of a concealed handgun could act as a deterrent and prevent aggression. This would be the stage just before actually exposing or drawing the weapon.

The Penal Code recognizes the drawing of a weapon or threatening of the use of a weapon as a use of force...but states that this scenerio in not the use of deadly force. Only by actually firing does it become the use of deadly force. The Penal Code also makes permissible this threat and use in response to anothers use of force or deadly force..

It seems to me that there is a logical progression where one may act more aggressively as the potential or actual threat escalates.

1. For a 'potential threat' you check and adjust.
2. For a slightly more immediate threat one might reasonably draw attention to the presence of a concealed handgun.
3. For an actual threat of force one might respond by exposing the weapon or even drawing it.
4. If the threat become the threat or use of deadly force one might be justified in using the weapon.

I am not commenting on the tactical wisdom of any particular course of action and each situation will have to be decided on the spot.

CWOOD made a great point that I'd like to expand on.

We tend to belittle people that panic at the sight or mention of guns (like the school in Chandler that suspended a boy for drawing a gun."

To me, this reeks of "Do as I say, and not as I do."

What I mean is, we shouldn't panic just because we see a gun, just like we'd ask Jim and Jane Q Public not to. Remember: Guns are tools.

Actions are what is meaningful. Someone open carrying is not a threat. If I was going to rob a bank, I'd want my assault to be a suprise. I'd want to look as inconspicious as possible until the moment I chose to make my move. Open carrying would not allow me to do that. (Granted not all crooks are this smart)

If we start getting upset when we see openly carried guns, we weaken our position that guns are nothing to be scared of.

Even though I disagree with what the OP in the other thread thought, I thought he handled himself very well. He saw something that made him nervous (he shouldn't have been, but thats not the point) and he took action to see what was going on, and if further action was needed.

+1 to nitrogen.

Many years ago in another life (another wife), we were out to lunch with a friend from church who happened to be German. We were at Bonanza, enjoying the salad bar. So were four local LEOs. Two of them in uniform, and two of them plainclothes. One was the Chief Deputy, wearing a polo shirt embroidered with his badge and name. The other was a local detective, who removed his sport jacket before wading into the salad bar.

Our friend was mightily incensed at the non-uniformed LEOs carrying pistols. "They should cover them up!" she whined. Meanwhile, their uniformed dining buddies caused her no alarm at all.

It really is all about indoctrination.

Kevin

I see plain clothed leo's all the time, and have never felt the need to give them a second thought.
However I do try to get a better look at their guns and holsters, while trying not to look like I'm looking.

I look at the person, how he is carrying himself, what he is doing, what is his eyes "saying".

I wish more leo's would open carry in plain clothes to get the masses used to seeing it. I think it would give us non-leo's a better chance at being able to get the laws changed where we could open carry.

Dan

When I see a person with a gun in a holster, I don't even give it a second thought. Someone with a gun in a waistband is a different story.

So, as long as bad guys don't read this and start carrying holsters, then I guess I'm OK.

Hmm... but I like the ClipDraw carry method, so what does that say about ME?

llwatson wrote:When I see a person with a gun in a holster, I don't even give it a second thought. Someone with a gun in a waistband is a different story.

So, as long as bad guys don't read this and start carrying holsters, then I guess I'm OK.

Hmm... but I like the ClipDraw carry method, so what does that say about ME?

+1

If it's in a holster i tend to assume they have legal clearance to carry openly, but i might still eyeball them for a while, probably more to figure out WHAT they're carrying than anything else? Does anyone else do this? Eyeball a LEO to try and see what weapon he's packing? It's a bad idea but i can't seem to help myself. In Sams the other day i had to stop myself from walking up to the guard and asking him about the taurus he had on.

If it's tucked into the waistband and/or they don't look to be cops they will immediately become my center of attention and I will begin looking 4 cover and/or exits.

That being said, i carry in my waistband at the moment due to lack of a decent holster, but it's concealed.

I see LEOs of all sorts with no uniforms open carrying all the time. In Galveston county it is fairly common place. for the elected LEOs like the Sheriff and Constables to be sen in civies while OC. Some reserve officers in small towns will respond to assist at scenes typically wearing civies and OC.

I work in Baytown and they have a training field where lots of LEOs come from all over to do training. You can't throw a donut in some of the local eateries at lunchtime without hitting 6 cops open carrying while wearing civies.

I becomes clearer that our work is cut out for us, when even CHLers get squirmish when they see a gun. Open carry is common place in much of the civilized world such as New Mexico the Dakotas, and Idaho. Yet in Texas it is cause for alarm. We need to convince our own that the right to carry openly will not result in the destruction of civilization, before we will be able to convince the 2009 legislature that its a good idea

Liberty wrote:I see LEOs of all sorts with no uniforms open carrying all the time. ... I becomes clearer that our work is cut out for us, when even CHLers get squirmish when they see a gun.

I agree, especially in the restaurants around the courthouse.

Criminals do not carry openly, especially when eating in sit-down restaurants.

- Jim

I focus more on "actions" rather than "attire". I do not place any trust in appearances. The visual of a firearm obviously gets attention but his body language is more important. For a few bucks I could buy a badge and pass myself as a plains-clothed officer.

I don't usually worry about people open carrying who look like LEOs. I do begin to take preparations when I am in a mall or store or elsewhere and I see gang bangers, whether or not I see any weapons. Since I almost always pocket carry at least a back up gun, I generally put my hand in my pocket onto the handle of that gun. It may not be as good as my primary but I will get it out a lot easier and meanwhile don't look as odd as I would if I put my hand back on the handle of the gun I am carrying on my hip.

llwatson wrote:When I see a person with a gun in a holster, I don't even give it a second thought. Someone with a gun in a waistband is a different story.

So, as long as bad guys don't read this and start carrying holsters, then I guess I'm OK.

Hmm... but I like the ClipDraw carry method, so what does that say about ME?

Probably means you are like me. I was telling a friend about the other thread where I had posted that same theory, then realized I had my pistol in my pocket with no holster either.

seamusTX wrote:[riminals do not carry openly, especially when eating in sit-down restaurants.

- Jim

That is because most people react to open carry like the dude that started this whole discussion. like this

And so many here want to make it legal to open carry. Will you all greet each other instead of hand shaking, but by grabbing your own gun butt, "just in case"?

Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

txinvestigator wrote:

seamusTX wrote:[riminals do not carry openly, especially when eating in sit-down restaurants.

- Jim

That is because most people react to open carry like the dude that started this whole discussion. like this

And so many here want to make it legal to open carry. Will you all greet each other instead of hand shaking, but by grabbing your own gun butt, "just in case"?

Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Excellent point.

txinvestigator wrote:Make open carry legal and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Make car carry legal, and the bad guys won't mind doing it either.

Oh, wait... come Saturday, they'll all be legal, so bad guys who never, ever! illegally carried guns, are bound to start.

Dodge City.

Blood in the streets.

Right?