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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070830/ap_ ... estigation

Sometimes I have to wonder if these people that write this stuff are as swooft as they think they are...

An answer to a question, that sounds good, makes them look intelligent and reasonable, and really doesn't answer the question, may in fact be pretty smart...

Who knows...

All I know is that the fact that we have these places of higher learning that are also the juiciest "gun free zones", doesn't say much for the real intelligence or common sense you'd think would be prevalent in these institutions...

stevie_d_64 wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070830/ap_ ... estigation

Sometimes I have to wonder if these people that write this stuff are as swooft as they think they are... ...

I don't. They aren't.

stevie_d_64 wrote: An answer to a question, that sounds good, makes them look intelligent and reasonable, and really doesn't answer the question, may in fact be pretty smart... ...

Only on a very superficial level. Nothing that would withstand analysis.

stevie_d_64 wrote: All I know is that the fact that we have these places of higher learning that are also the juiciest "gun free zones", doesn't say much for the real intelligence or common sense you'd think would be prevalent in these institutions...

I'm not sure about the response times involved and all, and mostly what this article did was raise questions in my mind.

When did the local police (not the University Police) get word of the first shootings and the fact that the shooter was still on the loose?

Does the University Police have LEO authority in VA like they can in TX?

Why did the University Police not alert the student body & faculty? I would think that having a killer on the loose would bypass any restrictions the university administration might place on things.

Why does VA Tech still maintain its "no firearms" policy when all evidence that is available demonstrates that this creates zones where people like Seung-Hui Cho can kill a bunch of kids who can't protect themselves?

I guess that these are all the same questions that everyone here is already asking, though...

Who ever said that common sense and intelligence went hand in hand? In my experience, sense is the least common thing about it...

Mithras61 wrote:Why does VA Tech still maintain its "no firearms" policy when all evidence that is available demonstrates that this creates zones where people like Seung-Hui Cho can kill a bunch of kids who can't protect themselves?

Its called stubborn pride...If they go public with even reviewing the "gun free zone" policy, they will have every bleeding heart MSM drawing attention to the possibility that this university will allow anyone to have guns on campus...And it will be negatively spun from here to Christmas...

The university will lose students, and more importantly tuition monies from that loss of population...

The strategy is to take the lumps from the outrage that they are not going to change policy, and take the lesser hit from the possible loss of revenue there, than incur the opposite...

All in the hope that it just goes away...

Well we haven't seen even the one year anniversary of this tragedy yet...But its coming...And all of this discussion will happen again...Our side of the issue will be downplayed, and nothing will really change in the long run...

Its all about the $$$$$ over life itself...

stevie_d_64 wrote:

Mithras61 wrote: Its all about the $$$$$ over life itself...

I don't know if I buy that...I generally don’t buy into absolutes.

Some of the anti's I've met genuinely believed that gun free zones reduce the overall death toll due to firearms. They admit things like what happened at VT and Columbine will happen since they accept criminals will ignore the law. But they do believe if the gun laws were tougher, then it would be harder for bad guys to get guns…not impossible, but harder.

They also accept that an armed citizen may be able to bring an active shooter situation to a close faster then waiting for LEO to show up.

But they also believe the deaths due to escalated altercations, road rage, and the likes would outnumber the reductions. They also point out that even if CHL’s were able to carry at VT, there’s no guarantee one would have been in the right spot to end the rampage.

One even said to me he went to a gun forum one time to see what gun folks talk about and one of the things he noticed was a common thread that basically stated “I’m not my brother’s keeper�. He came away with the impression CHL’s wouldn’t help anybody, they were just looking out for themselves.

Now I’m not justifying their stance, and I’m for carry on campus…and for that matter just about everywhere else, including planes, and I can shoot as many holes in their arguments as anyone else can. But the point is, of the folks I’ve discussed this with, not a single one has broken the discussion down to dollars vs life.

You know, there’s a chance the powers to be at VT actually believe gun free zones are the way to go to protect their students…I just don’t buy they’re all heartless politicians doing nothing but looking out for themselves and the bottom-line (in that order), and they know their decisions could cost the lives of some students, but they just don't care.

Maybe I’m wrong…I sure hope not.

TX Rancher wrote:You know, there’s a chance the powers to be at VT actually believe gun free zones are the way to go to protect their students…

I agree. I've talked to people face-to-face who stubbornly believe that laws prevent criminals from committing crimes. In some ways, they are as irrational as people who believe the earth is flat and the moon landings were fake.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

TX Rancher wrote:You know, there’s a chance the powers to be at VT actually believe gun free zones are the way to go to protect their students…

I agree. I've talked to people face-to-face who stubbornly believe that laws prevent criminals from committing crimes. In some ways, they are as irrational as people who believe the earth is flat and the moon landings were fake.

- Jim

Now thats just a plain absolute!!!

Take the blinders off these people and see what you get...Have you ever seens a coniption fit??? Like Bill Cosby said one time???

Rancher has a great perspective, and I didn't mean to challenge that with my absolute about it all being about the $$$$$...I just believe it actually does teeter on the perpetuation of the university and its directors who work there...Upsetting the applecart either way doesn't bode well for them, and standing pat on certain policies helps keep their positions solidified and justified...I hate to be that callous, but thats just the way I see it...

The way to check this is to look at what was really talked about in the investigation...As far as prevention goes, and the obvious question from our side of the equation, that was probably never asked or subject discussed...

I pretty much leave it at that...

Maybe someone could find a copy of the investigation (report) and post a link here for us to look at...I've looked and come up blank so far...

TX Rancher wrote: You know, there’s a chance the powers to be at VT actually believe gun free zones are the way to go to protect their students…

I agree. I think it is because of the reason you cite quoted below.

TX Rancher wrote: But they also believe the deaths due to escalated altercations, road rage, and the likes would outnumber the reductions.

Basically, while they may recognize that allowing for concealed carry may reduce the death toll from the rare "Cho" shooting spree, they judge that in the long run the death toll from more ordinary "one at a time" shootings would be greater.

What they don't seem to recognize is that there is no basis for this judgement. Since FL started the trend in 1987, literally millions of Americans have obtained CHL's. So there is a HUGE amount of historical data that clearly shows that CHL's do not engage in road rage, do not escalate minor arguments and confrontations, and in fact are the most law-abiding and least violent segment of society.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

TX Rancher wrote: You know, there’s a chance the powers to be at VT actually believe gun free zones are the way to go to protect their students…

I agree. I think it is because of the reason you cite quoted below.

TX Rancher wrote: But they also believe the deaths due to escalated altercations, road rage, and the likes would outnumber the reductions.

Basically, while they may recognize that allowing for concealed carry may reduce the death toll from the rare "Cho" shooting spree, they judge that in the long run the death toll from more ordinary "one at a time" shootings would be greater.

What they don't seem to recognize is that there is no basis for this judgement. Since FL started the trend in 1987, literally millions of Americans have obtained CHL's. So there is a HUGE amount of historical data that clearly shows that CHL's do not engage in road rage, do not escalate minor arguments and confrontations, and in fact are the most law-abiding and least violent segment of society.

Yep...And thats why when we apply this logic to the issue, no one like you or I will ever be asked to come on and make the simple and logical presentation on FoxNews or other national media outlet right after something like this happens...

The hard truth is no one wants to hear it at that time...

Some perspective...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070830/ap_ ... h_families

See if you believe this to be based upon emotion, or an interest in paving the way for this to not happen again...

Just my 2 cents...

Mithras61 wrote:Why did the University Police not alert the student body & faculty? I would think that having a killer on the loose would bypass any restrictions the university administration might place on things.

You know, this is one question I really do not understand at all. When was the last time the city you live in told you about a killer on the loose? Think real hard and ask if the city told you or you found out by rumor or from the 6 o'clock news. Then ask yourself when was the last murder in your city and see if the two are related. In my whole career as a police officer, I have never sent notice to a community that a killing had just occurred and a killer might be on the loose in the area. The media has played it up that way sometimes, but I have never done it. Even in the cities with the new reverse 911 emergency warning systems, I have never heard of it being used for this. That was done for other types of disasters (train wreck with leaking poison gas in San Antonio once), but not this.



I heard the report also says that lives could have been saved if the police alert had gone out earlier. I call bull on that. Lives might have been saved if the report could have read the future and said he is still on campus and might kill someone else in a classroom. Even then it would depend on if the student received the report and decided to leave campus. How many people left BEFORE Katrina hit?

The other thing wrong with this "might have saved lives" is that it would have required that the police know then what we know now. The killer was thought to have left the campus area, not be setting up for another killing. As a matter of fact, it appears he did leave campus to mail the package and then came back (I thought I saw it was mailed from off-campus but I could be wrong about this), so the report would not have done anything if the police sent it with what they believed at the time.

Mithras61 wrote: Why does VA Tech still maintain its "no firearms" policy when all evidence that is available demonstrates that this creates zones where people like Seung-Hui Cho can kill a bunch of kids who can't protect themselves?

The same reason Texas University bans Guns in Austin 30 years later. Only Utah allows students to be armed in the class room VT wasn't the first school Masacre and it won't be the last. The Legislators and the School administrators know their schools are killing fields and won't do anything about it.

Utah schools fought allowing guns in the class room tooth and nail it took a conservative Legislature and conservative courts to force them to allow the guns.

I asked last year before this tragedy why the TRSA didn't fight to allow CHL carry in the class room the response was something like "there are more important issues." It's all abut picking ones battles. Is allowing guns in the classroom more important than Open carry, or parking lot bills? These are issues that the TSRA, its members and the letter writers need to concider.

Now while I believe that the young people at our colleges need protection others who are forced to be disarmed at their work parking lots might feel their issue is more urgent. While bathers in their speedos and bikinis here in Galveston really like the idea of open carry.

Its all about perspective.

srothstein wrote:

Mithras61 wrote:Why did the University Police not alert the student body & faculty? I would think that having a killer on the loose would bypass any restrictions the university administration might place on things.

You know, this is one question I really do not understand at all. When was the last time the city you live in told you about a killer on the loose? Think real hard and ask if the city told you or you found out by rumor or from the 6 o'clock news. Then ask yourself when was the last murder in your city and see if the two are related. In my whole career as a police officer, I have never sent notice to a community that a killing had just occurred and a killer might be on the loose in the area. The media has played it up that way sometimes, but I have never done it. Even in the cities with the new reverse 911 emergency warning systems, I have never heard of it being used for this. That was done for other types of disasters (train wreck with leaking poison gas in San Antonio once), but not this.



I heard the report also says that lives could have been saved if the police alert had gone out earlier. I call bull on that. Lives might have been saved if the report could have read the future and said he is still on campus and might kill someone else in a classroom. Even then it would depend on if the student received the report and decided to leave campus. How many people left BEFORE Katrina hit?

The other thing wrong with this "might have saved lives" is that it would have required that the police know then what we know now. The killer was thought to have left the campus area, not be setting up for another killing. As a matter of fact, it appears he did leave campus to mail the package and then came back (I thought I saw it was mailed from off-campus but I could be wrong about this), so the report would not have done anything if the police sent it with what they believed at the time.

Berlieve it or not, the majority of the people left in NO for Katrina were dependant on others for their transportation. That tends to make this a poor example. I remember when Houston had an ammonia truck tip over at the intersection of two major freeways, and most people learned about it from the news that night, well after the danger had passed. There wasn't anything that was sent out over the radio or anything that told folks to stay away from the area until it could be cleaned up.

I guess I can see your point, though even if I don't agree with it. I think police would be better served if they DID alert locals when a killer was on the loose because I believe most LACs would alert police of the POI's presence. If he had left the campus, they should have had local PD involved in tracing him at that point, and not waited until he returned to the campus & started shooting other people to get them invoved.

I have been on a campus when something nasty happened. I learned about the nasty stuff about 10 minutes after it happened by the usual method - the grapevine was working that day, and the students got the word out well before the administration knew what had gone down. It wasn't a murder, but the suspect was captured by police about an hour after the assault. I've been told that it was a student tip that lead to his capture.

srothstein wrote:You know, this is one question I really do not understand at all. When was the last time the city you live in told you about a killer on the loose?

Earlier this year in Galveston, an armed robber at a convenience store shot and killed a man while leaving the store -- completely gratuitous violence. The police alerted the schools, and the schools were locked down for several hours. (The killer was never identified.)

It was possibly relevant that the killing occured yards from a school that was in session.

I have mixed feelings about the Virginia Tech case. The first killings looked like a personal dispute, not random violence. Even if the school had been locked down, Cho could have shot up his own dorm or found a crowd somewhere else.

- Jim

Liberty wrote:Its all about perspective.

Yep!