OC Carry question

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by The Annoyed Man »

mojo84 wrote:Maybe the legislature should have said wearing a firearm openly in a belt or shoulder holster instead of carrying.
Maybe they should have, but to me, the legislative intent is plain enough. Common usage would say that a belt holster is worn on the belt, and a shoulder holster is worn on the shoulder. Legislators have two sort of foundational requirements when writing legislation: 1) to make the language of the law as clear to as many people as possible, and 2) to make their intent as clear as possible.

For me personally, "carried in a belt holster or shoulder holster" is self evident. I do understand the impulse to clarify the minutiae, but I am also bothered by the "looking for loopholes" mentality of some. In another thread ongoing at the moment, we have a discussion of whether or not it is permissible to shoot someone under a pretty far-fetched scenario. One of the respondents said:
EEllis wrote:As an aside[,] what is up with all the "Can't I please shoot them" threads?
He's right.

It seems to me that the OP's question in this thread is already answered by existing law. You're already allowed to have a firearm in your car under MPA, even without a CHL. The only requirement is that it be concealed from plain sight. There have been a number of assertions on this forum over the past few years, from people knowledgeable about the law, that, even with a CHL, MPA supersedes CHL while in your vehicle. (I suspect that this is because MPA covers all motorists who may legally possess a firearm, while CHL pertains only to a small subset of all motorists who may legally possess a firearm.....but I could be wrong about that.) If MPA supersedes CHL while in your vehicle, then it follows that the concealment requirements for MPA supersede those for CHL. Under those requirements, the gun must be concealed, with one exception provided by CHL as of 1/1/16: any firearm openly carried in a belt or shoulder holster, accounting for legislative intent.

Only someone who is looking for ways to poke the law in the eye would question whether or not the legislature intended "carried" while specifying "in a belt or shoulder holster" to mean anything other than "worn on the person".

As Jim pointed out above (very wisely, I might add), that if you are confident of your position, do what you like, but accept all the consequences without complaint. I also like his use of the term "sea lawyers". And Jim, I wonder if it wouldn't be more effective to ask the AG to issue that opinion with respect to what the law means, rather than DPS. DPS's involvement in any infractions begins with making an arrest, and ends with testifying at trial.......whereas the AG can define once and for all whether anyone will even be arrested, and if erroneously arrested, whether or not a trial will go forward - since it is a state offense, not a local one. Individual police agency management might feel less bound by an official DPS policy than they would feel bound by the AG's policy, who has authority over all violations of state law regardless of agency. Individual agencies might interpret a DPS policy to apply only to DPS officers, while an AG policy would apply to ALL officers regardless of agency. There would be no wiggle room for interpretation. At least, that is the way I see it.
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JALLEN
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by JALLEN »

At some point in the continuum, your hand on the gun in the usual and customary fashion becomes brandishing, whether it is still in the holster or not if it is not on your belt or shoulder rig, and might even result in the brandishee taking offense, and if a cop, returning "fire."
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by mojo84 »

TAM, My comment was more to just make a point rather than to suggest making a bunch of changes. I also tried to make a point earlier in this and other threads about people always trying to find loopholes and the outer limits of what is legal, acceptable and intended.

I'm doing my best to make my points within the forum guidelines. ;-)
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by b322da »

The Annoyed Man wrote:... And Jim, I wonder if it wouldn't be more effective to ask the AG to issue that opinion with respect to what the law means, rather than DPS....
I gave that some thought before my last post, TAM, and I decided against it for several inconsequential reasons. My suggestion was initially triggered by jmra's astute suggestion, which showed signs of sinking without a trace. Secondly, it is sometimes not all that easy getting a timely AG's opinion, no matter who requests it, particularly a lowly citizen, and I was concerned about the timing. Frankly, I do not think the question merits the AG's attention. Of course, right now it may be relevant that the AG has other things to worry about. ;-)

Of course all this begs the real question, "Don't we all, including me, have better things to quibble about?" I quoted Shakespeare recently on another post. I have with difficulty restrained quoting here Miguel de Cervantes, in "Don Quixote de la Mancha."

Jim
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by JALLEN »

While I am not sure an AG opinion is binding on individual police agencies, and certainly not on the courts, it carries some weight, and would be certain to be cited in the argument over interpretation, by whichever side agrees with the opinion. I believe the Court of Criminal Appeals has the last word on interpretation of criminal statutes in Texas.

IANAL, in Texas or anymore in California.
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Re: OC Carry question

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JALLEN wrote:While I am not sure an AG opinion is binding on individual police agencies, and certainly not on the courts, it carries some weight, and would be certain to be cited in the argument over interpretation, by whichever side agrees with the opinion. I believe the Court of Criminal Appeals has the last word on interpretation of criminal statutes in Texas....
Should there be some misunderstanding, JALLEN, I have tried my best, using quotation marks, underlining and bold print, to make it abundantly clear that I am talking about "opinions," not a final legal determination. To suggest otherwise would turn my argument on its head.

To inexcusably stretch a point with what I have more than once publicly stated is likely fencing with windmills, might not even the Supreme Court of the United States be the final judicial "decider" in the case of a conviction of violation of an unconstitutionally vague Texas criminal statute? :confused5

Jim
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by WildBill »

Even though it is not binding I would think that an AG opinion would give some "authoritative" guidance to District Attorneys and Law Enforcement whether or not to prosecute certain cases.

This would tend to make arrests and prosecutions more consistent throughout the state.

I thought that was the purpose of requesting these opinions.
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by b322da »

WildBill wrote:Even though it is not binding I would think that an AG opinion would give some "authoritative" guidance to District Attorneys and Law Enforcement whether or not to prosecute certain cases.

This would tend to make arrests and prosecutions more consistent throughout the state.

I thought that was the purpose of requesting these opinions.
Along with taking the heat of some stress off an LEO, and giving some perhaps helpful guidance to the public, I certainly agree with you WildBill.

Jim
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by JALLEN »

b322da wrote:
JALLEN wrote:While I am not sure an AG opinion is binding on individual police agencies, and certainly not on the courts, it carries some weight, and would be certain to be cited in the argument over interpretation, by whichever side agrees with the opinion. I believe the Court of Criminal Appeals has the last word on interpretation of criminal statutes in Texas....
Should there be some misunderstanding, JALLEN, I have tried my best, using quotation marks, underlining and bold print, to make it abundantly clear that I am talking about "opinions," not a final legal determination. To suggest otherwise would turn my argument on its head.

To inexcusably stretch a point with what I have more than once publicly stated is likely fencing with windmills, might not even the Supreme Court of the United States be the final judicial "decider" in the case of a conviction of violation of an unconstitutionally vague Texas criminal statute? :confused5

Jim
No misunderstanding, I don't think. Maybe a bit of semantics. The AG issues an opinion. The Courts issue opinions in deciding cases. What's the diff?

The AG's opinion might be binding on state agencies, like DPS, or the Railroad Commision, etc. but is not binding on the courts. IOW, no court MUST follow the AG opinion. I don't know if local governments are bound by AG opinions. I imagine mostly they follow them unless there is a really, really good reason. As I said earlier, an AG opinion is persuasive authority, usually, as they are mostly very carefully written, based on solid case and statutory law, and reviewed by very competent experienced AAGs before being made public. Having a court reject the analysis of an AG opinion is not unheard of, but not common.

In contrast, ALL courts in Texas must follow the opinions in Court of Criminal Appeals in criminal cases in deciding the same issues. Those are binding on the lower courts. If the CCA says this statute means thus and so, ALL courts must interpret it thusly. In civil cases, there are appellate courts in each part of the state, and a Supreme Court. The Supreme Court rulings cover everyone, the various appellate courts bind only the courts in their area.

In Federal Courts, everybody is bound by Supreme Court rulings. District Courts are bound to follow Appellate Court opinions in their circuit. 5th Circuit binds only federal district courts in that circuit, 9th Circuit binds only the courts in the 9th Circus. One frequent ground for Supreme Court review is conflicting rulings between the circuits.
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by WildBill »

I am not a an attorney in Texas or California, but I believe that this supports what JALLEN stated in his post.
The Texas Constitution and sections 402.042 and 402.043 of the Texas Government Code grant the attorney general authority to issue attorney general opinions. An attorney general opinion is a written interpretation of existing law. Attorney general opinions cannot create new provisions in the law or correct unintended, undesirable effects of the law. Attorney general opinions do not necessarily reflect the attorney general's personal views, nor does the attorney general in any way "rule" on what the law should say. Furthermore, attorney general opinions cannot resolve factual disputes.

An attorney general opinion issued under sections 402.042 or 402.043 of the Texas Government Code is different from the legal advice, opinions and decisions that the attorney general provides under other Texas statutes. For example, an attorney general opinion issued under section 402.042 of the Texas Government Code is not an Open Records Decision issued under chapter 552 of the Texas Government Code or an All Bond Counsel Letter issued under section 402.044 of the Texas Government Code.

Courts have stated that attorney general opinions are highly persuasive and are entitled to great weight; however, the ultimate determination of a law's applicability, meaning or constitutionality is left to the courts. For this reason, the attorney general generally does not write attorney general opinions on issues that are involved in pending litigation.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/op ... l-opinions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by JALLEN »

WildBill wrote:I am not a an attorney in Texas or California, but I believe that this supports what JALLEN stated in his post.
The Texas Constitution and sections 402.042 and 402.043 of the Texas Government Code grant the attorney general authority to issue attorney general opinions. An attorney general opinion is a written interpretation of existing law. Attorney general opinions cannot create new provisions in the law or correct unintended, undesirable effects of the law. Attorney general opinions do not necessarily reflect the attorney general's personal views, nor does the attorney general in any way "rule" on what the law should say. Furthermore, attorney general opinions cannot resolve factual disputes.

An attorney general opinion issued under sections 402.042 or 402.043 of the Texas Government Code is different from the legal advice, opinions and decisions that the attorney general provides under other Texas statutes. For example, an attorney general opinion issued under section 402.042 of the Texas Government Code is not an Open Records Decision issued under chapter 552 of the Texas Government Code or an All Bond Counsel Letter issued under section 402.044 of the Texas Government Code.

Courts have stated that attorney general opinions are highly persuasive and are entitled to great weight; however, the ultimate determination of a law's applicability, meaning or constitutionality is left to the courts. For this reason, the attorney general generally does not write attorney general opinions on issues that are involved in pending litigation.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/op ... l-opinions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by The Annoyed Man »

mojo84 wrote:TAM, My comment was more to just make a point rather than to suggest making a bunch of changes. I also tried to make a point earlier in this and other threads about people always trying to find loopholes and the outer limits of what is legal, acceptable and intended.

I'm doing my best to make my points within the forum guidelines. ;-)
Mojo, we're good. I was remembering in part your post in that other thread when I wrote that wall of text. But I do think it is always worth expanding on the concept of legislative intent. Some people seem think that it has no weight at all, when nothing could be further from the truth.
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by mojo84 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
mojo84 wrote:TAM, My comment was more to just make a point rather than to suggest making a bunch of changes. I also tried to make a point earlier in this and other threads about people always trying to find loopholes and the outer limits of what is legal, acceptable and intended.

I'm doing my best to make my points within the forum guidelines. ;-)
Mojo, we're good. I was remembering in part your post in that other thread when I wrote that wall of text. But I do think it is always worth expanding on the concept of legislative intent. Some people seem think that it has no weight at all, when nothing could be further from the truth.
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by JALLEN »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
mojo84 wrote:TAM, My comment was more to just make a point rather than to suggest making a bunch of changes. I also tried to make a point earlier in this and other threads about people always trying to find loopholes and the outer limits of what is legal, acceptable and intended.

I'm doing my best to make my points within the forum guidelines. ;-)
Mojo, we're good. I was remembering in part your post in that other thread when I wrote that wall of text. But I do think it is always worth expanding on the concept of legislative intent. Some people seem think that it has no weight at all, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Some people might, but lawyers who are confronted with an issue of statutory interpretation not resolved by precedential case law go right to the legislative intent as revealed in the legislative proceedings, hearings, amendment history, etc. for whatever clues have been left. That's where the judges go!
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Re: OC Carry question

Post by C-dub »

JALLEN wrote:
WildBill wrote:I am not a an attorney in Texas or California, but I believe that this supports what JALLEN stated in his post.
The Texas Constitution and sections 402.042 and 402.043 of the Texas Government Code grant the attorney general authority to issue attorney general opinions. An attorney general opinion is a written interpretation of existing law. Attorney general opinions cannot create new provisions in the law or correct unintended, undesirable effects of the law. Attorney general opinions do not necessarily reflect the attorney general's personal views, nor does the attorney general in any way "rule" on what the law should say. Furthermore, attorney general opinions cannot resolve factual disputes.

An attorney general opinion issued under sections 402.042 or 402.043 of the Texas Government Code is different from the legal advice, opinions and decisions that the attorney general provides under other Texas statutes. For example, an attorney general opinion issued under section 402.042 of the Texas Government Code is not an Open Records Decision issued under chapter 552 of the Texas Government Code or an All Bond Counsel Letter issued under section 402.044 of the Texas Government Code.

Courts have stated that attorney general opinions are highly persuasive and are entitled to great weight; however, the ultimate determination of a law's applicability, meaning or constitutionality is left to the courts. For this reason, the attorney general generally does not write attorney general opinions on issues that are involved in pending litigation.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/op ... l-opinions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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