One in the chamber?

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

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LSUTiger
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by LSUTiger »

Richbirdhunter wrote:I don't have one racked, I have small kids and while they've never gotten their hands on one of my guns without my permission. It's just a chance I don't choose to take. Now if I'm out without the kids then I'm locked and loaded.
I prefer to carry one in the chamber always but carry loaded magazine, none in the chamber.

I don't carry with one in the chamber either, for the same reason. It's an extra safety precaution for the guns in the house/children compromise.

I however, don't carry one in the chamber when I'm out, mainly for consistency. When you have a dedicated HD gun and dedicated CC gun and multiple guns,it's too difficult to keep track of which gun is hot and which one is not. I don't have to constantly manipulate the gun to load/unload based on situation.

There is no guess work, treat as if they are loaded but just know you have to chamber a round when you draw. It's a training issue.

The constant manipulation of the gun, unloading and loading chambering a round can also cause bullet setback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6PAmKLUcbc
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by striker55 »

Yes cocked and locked. I carried concealed on one of my jobs at the front desk of a hotel. One day I exited the office and slipped on a wet floor. Went down on my side with the gun, after regaining my senses I went into the bathroom to check that no damage happened to my gun. I was glad nothing happened.
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nyj
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by nyj »

Those who carry without a round in the chamber are typically inexperienced and lack overall gun handling time.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by lildave40 »

nyj wrote:Those who carry without a round in the chamber are typically inexperienced and lack overall gun handling time.
I hate to admit it, but you are correct. When I first started carrying I was afraid to have one in the chamber due to the lack of training. But as I learned more about cc and trained more I started to carry with one in the chamber.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by c.edgington »

IMHO,

If you're going to carry without OIC, I wouldn't carry at all. As has been pointed out here at length, the distances and engagement types that you are most likely to find yourself at in a deadly force encounter will render your firearm useless without a round chambered (and there are many deadly force videos that can be watched in support of this). I see the inability/unwillingness to carry with OIC (in the LONG run) as a sign of mental unpreparedness, and if you are unprepared for the responsibility, you're just going to get yourself or someone else killed. Side Note: I don't believe this necessarily applies to someone just starting out, if you need a few weeks to get comfortable, I think you should take that time. If you can't get comfortable with a marginally "riskier" form of CC, then sell your gun and stay @ the house.

As gun owners/CHLs, we argue over almost everything - all the time. I don't believe this is one of those subjects that has two valid POV's, and I think most would agree. If you need to revise your CCW or method of carry to something with a manual safety or a better holster, then do it.

Just my $0.02 :tiphat:
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TheDude
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by TheDude »

lildave40 wrote:
nyj wrote:Those who carry without a round in the chamber are typically inexperienced and lack overall gun handling time.
I hate to admit it, but you are correct. When I first started carrying I was afraid to have one in the chamber due to the lack of training. But as I learned more about cc and trained more I started to carry with one in the chamber.
:iagree:

I don't know anyone with very much training who doesn't carry with one in the pipe. I started off carrying a Ruger SR9c which has a ton of safety features. Thumb safety, mag release safety, Glock style trigger safety, and a HUGE loaded chamber indicator. Then, I took my first real pistol course which was two days and 1000 rounds.

I forgot the safety during a pretty simple moving and shooting drill done in front of the class to add some stress from people watching. This led me to believe I had a malfunction so I did a 'Tap and Rack' which didn't work because the safety keeps the slide from moving. By the time I figured it out 3-4 seconds had gone by not counting the amount of time it took to draw my pistol from the concealed holster. In real life someone could have stabbed me to death during those few seconds.

I bought a Glock 19 within a few weeks of that class. It was eye opening to me that with a very small amount of stress I forgot the safety. If someone is trying to kill me or mine then I definitely don't want to worry about racking the slide or a safety! JMO. I have since went through several pistol courses and have seen people forget safeties time and time again.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by Mike S »

dlh wrote:
Cowboyhockey14 wrote:I always carry with one in the chamber. I dont feel like if I needed to draw my weapon, I would have enough time to rack one back. Cops carry with one in the chamber, Why wouldn't a CHL carrier??
Cops carry "in the chamber" because they are at far greater risk of harm than the average conceal-carry-holder. They also have their share of negligent discharges despite all of the training they go through.

dlh
Although LEOs probably do have a higher level of training than most civilians, I wouldn't necessarily characterize that as quality or competency across the board. Just like civilians (or military for that matter), there will be some LEOs that practice regularly & intently, & others that dread their bi- annual qualification. I'd go on the assumption that the LEOs that have negligent discharges are not the same ones that spend their own time & money on ammo to practice regularly.

Hence my advice to the OP would be to train regularly until you are confident in both your ability to carry safely and that your gun is safe to carry with a round in the chamber. As mentioned already, your holster must cover the entire trigger guard, & when you train focus on keeping your finger indexed on the frame (as in never touching the trigger or resting on the trigger guard) during the draw stroke. In the beginning stages focus on your technique, NOT on speed. Speed will come naturally after your technique becomes smooth. If you're not sure how to begin, there are schools aplenty; find a reputable one in your area that will cover drawing from a holster. Once you have a solid foundation you'll be able to practice dry at home to develop the muscle memory.

In the interim, focus on the fundamental rules of never letting your muzzle cover something you don't want to destroy, & keeping your finger off the trigger/away from the trigger guard until your ready to engage, & use good technique for loading/unloading/clearing your pistol. You will eventually become more comfortable with it, just don't ever get complacent and you'll greatly reduce the chance of ever experiencing a ND.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by bigity »

I carry with one in the chamber. Striker fired pistol with a grip and trigger safety.
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nyj
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by nyj »

lildave40 wrote:
nyj wrote:Those who carry without a round in the chamber are typically inexperienced and lack overall gun handling time.
I hate to admit it, but you are correct. When I first started carrying I was afraid to have one in the chamber due to the lack of training. But as I learned more about cc and trained more I started to carry with one in the chamber.
My first Glock made me nervous. I think we're all uncomfortable with guns without safeties in the beginning.

People defend whatever fancy tactical name they give carrying without a round in the chamber, but their only argument is that they can chamber a round just as quick as drawing with a round in the chamber.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by flechero »

If you aren't comfortable with a round in the chamber, it's highly likely that you lack training, experience or familiarity with your weapon. And if that's the case- it's much more likely that you'll fumble that maneuver if you ever need the gun. Which of course, could prove fatal.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by Richbirdhunter »

nyj wrote:Those who carry without a round in the chamber are typically inexperienced and lack overall gun handling time.

I agree, my 9 year old son needs more training and gun handling time
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by baldeagle »

Dr.Wayne wrote:I agree, I dont see a point in carrying without one in the chamber, what really made me wonder if I was the minority that felt this way was a movie I was watching last night. In this scene a secret service officer draws out of his holster... then racks the slide... and I was thinking "huh?" Do most people not carry with one in the chamber? I was wondering if I was considering doing something dangerous.
That's Hollywood. They want the sound of the slide racking, because it's supposed to be intimidating. Of course they never think about the fact that you give away your position and the fact that you armed, handing the advantage to your adversary, but then they also have handle length magazines that shoot an endless number of rounds. Reality is not their forte.
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by Excaliber »

Skiprr wrote:My humble opinion is that carrying without one in the chamber provides you with, in the majority of instances in which you might need it, a potentially useful striking implement.

When this subject comes up, there is always a lot of discussion about the added time--not to mention the practice--it takes to draw, rack, present, and engage as opposed to draw, present, engage. But I'd argue that time is perhaps not the most important factor.

Outside of your home or an active shooter event, the best information we have shows that 90% of the time employment of use of deadly force will happen at a distance of less than 15 feet: 6 to 15 feet, 9%; 3 to 6 feet, 47%; contact to 3 feet, 34%. This is one reason to disregard examples of carry by the military (other than SpecOps), including Israeli Carry. Concealed carry in an urban environment is quite dissimilar to the typical military carry. Remember, too, that seeing multiple assailants in violent crimes is not uncommon.

Inside a radius of 10 feet, defending your life is about fighting, not about marksmanship. If you were Zatoichi and could slice a fly on the wing in half with the 28-inch katana you hada at your side, you very likely wouldn't need to carry a handgun. But we can't carry a sword, don't have those kinds of skills, and need something to help put us on (nearly) equal footing with the felon.

Reaction will always be slower than action. If the bad guy is even 15 feet from you and has immediate intention to do you harm, you're already way on the downside of the OODA Loop; you need every bit of help you can get. That means training first--both evasive and combatives--and tools second.

With a handgun, it isn't so much about the additional time needed to rack the slide as it is the additional hand required to do it. Essentially, it's the difference between carrying an Uncle Buck manual folding knife compared to a modern, spring-assist folder. If the only tool you have on your person is a knife and a bad guy rushes you from 15 feet, or has already encroached closer than 6 feet to ask if you the directions to wherever, which do you want? The Uncle Buck or a tactical folder that you can bring to play with one hand?

I have no misconceptions about my physical abilities as they decline with age. If I have to defend my life or my family's, I would choose a quickly deployable tool that fires an effective projectile rather than a 32-ounce metal-and-polymer mini-club.

This is also why I advocate a draw stroke that includes an indexed position pressed high against the ribcage before press-out. I'm not an advocate of the rock-and-lock...but even that is seldom practiced by most CHLers. The most practiced drawstroke, and what you'll see in IDPA and USPSA competition, is the one that rewards presentation to full, extended sight picture as quickly as possible. Statistics show that 81% of the time, the bad guy will be 6 feet or less from you. Patterning the conventional drawstroke is a recipe for failure at that distance.

Inside of 6 feet, even if you have time, you absolutely do not want to extend the gun toward the target at all. You want that handgun high and tight to your body where it's very difficult to grab or deflect, and you want your offhand free to block or strike. We seldom have the ability to practice this at the range simply because of the inherent safety concerns. But there's always dry-fire and Airsoft. IMHO, this pectoral-indexed position and the ability to deliver shots to the pelvic girdle of an attacker within arm's length should be practiced by every CHL holder to the point of unconscious competence. To me it stands to reason that if 80% of potential engagements happen at close distances, handling that situation should get 80% of my training.

And if you don't have one in the chamber ready to go, your best hope is that the bad guy is frightened enough by the mere site of your gun that he runs away. Just sayin'... ;-)
Very well put, Skiprr - :iagree:
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by baldeagle »

Carrying with one in the chamber is a personal choice. Whether you do or not, you should be training constantly to use your weapon in a life threatening situation. At home, remove the safety and clear the chamber. Double check to ensure it's clear. Then practice drawing your weapon in a safe direction (back yard if it's fenced, empty garage, etc. and racking the slide. In a life or death situation, your reaction will be based on trained motor skills not conscious thought. So train, train, train and practice, practice, practice. Because, while you may THINK your risk of attack is low, a bad guy may think otherwise. And when that moment comes, your life will be in the hands of your training not your brain.
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baldeagle
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Re: One in the chamber?

Post by baldeagle »

dlh wrote:
Cowboyhockey14 wrote:I always carry with one in the chamber. I dont feel like if I needed to draw my weapon, I would have enough time to rack one back. Cops carry with one in the chamber, Why wouldn't a CHL carrier??
Cops carry "in the chamber" because they are at far greater risk of harm than the average conceal-carry-holder. They also have their share of negligent discharges despite all of the training they go through.

dlh
Every department is different, but on average cops get 40 hours of training in the academy and then they have to re-qualify at the range annually. They do not get any ongoing firearms training, and it's entirely up to them to train if they want to. Some do. Some never do.

Negligent discharges are just that - negligent. They are the result of poor or non-existent training, a lack of firearms safety awareness and practice and just plain inattentiveness. A highly trained and practiced firearm handler should never have a negligent discharge. The fact that police do speaks to their LACK of training. Build good safe firearm handling habits, and you will never have a negligent discharge.
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