Pasadena gun show - AG complaint filed

[Goldspurs]

Shouldn't gun shows be one of the last places you would expect to see a 30.06? Seems like they are biting the hands that feeds them.

[AJSully421]

I filed an AG complaint about the Fort Worth Gun Show in September. Have not heard anything back. Fort Worth claimed the event organizer posted the sign.

Got a reply from AG liasion officer Captain Gregory Lewis telling me I need to follow the chain. That is complain to Will Rogers first. I got a response from the gun show organizer. Thought I would share.

"All gun shows in Texas that I am aware of are posted 30.06.



The issue is not that the gun is open or concealed carry but that it is loaded. Once the gun is unloaded, the method of carry is not an issue. All guns including concealed carry must be unloaded prior to entry into the show. Through the purchase of a ticket, you are entering a private event into a space under the control of a private entity. As a condition of entry to that private event, all guns must be unloaded. We have additional signage to that effect at our shows."

Well, Mr. Gun show organizer... if every other gun show organizer jumped off a cliff, would you too?

[Ipconfig]

I filed an AG complaint about the Fort Worth Gun Show in September. Have not heard anything back. Fort Worth claimed the event organizer posted the sign.

Got a reply from AG liasion officer Captain Gregory Lewis telling me I need to follow the chain. That is complain to Will Rogers first. I got a response from the gun show organizer. Thought I would share.

"All gun shows in Texas that I am aware of are posted 30.06.



The issue is not that the gun is open or concealed carry but that it is loaded. Once the gun is unloaded, the method of carry is not an issue. All guns including concealed carry must be unloaded prior to entry into the show. Through the purchase of a ticket, you are entering a private event into a space under the control of a private entity. As a condition of entry to that private event, all guns must be unloaded. We have additional signage to that effect at our shows."

Well, Mr. Gun show organizer... if every other gun show organizer jumped off a cliff, would you too?

What gets me about gun show 30.06 is I can buy a gun at 1 table and turn around and buy ammo and go to town shooting, so what difference does a CHL carrying make.

[dhoobler]

I filed an AG complaint about the Fort Worth Gun Show in September. Have not heard anything back. Fort Worth claimed the event organizer posted the sign.

Got a reply from AG liasion officer Captain Gregory Lewis telling me I need to follow the chain. That is complain to Will Rogers first. I got a response from the gun show organizer. Thought I would share.

"All gun shows in Texas that I am aware of are posted 30.06.



The issue is not that the gun is open or concealed carry but that it is loaded. Once the gun is unloaded, the method of carry is not an issue. All guns including concealed carry must be unloaded prior to entry into the show. Through the purchase of a ticket, you are entering a private event into a space under the control of a private entity. As a condition of entry to that private event, all guns must be unloaded. We have additional signage to that effect at our shows."

All shows are not 30.06 posted. The Pasadena show this past weekend was not 30.06 posted. It did have a generic sign, but not a 30.06 sign.

[dlh]

How about this for an amateur pop psychology junk science theory:

They want to dispossess you of your handgun to make you feel "vulnerable" which in turn will make you feel like buying some guns and ammo---maybe even some beef jerky and a knife or two. Sales and profits for the vendors....whatcha think?

dlh

[JP171]

Today I filed a complaint the the attorney general about the exclusion of CHL firearms from the gun show at the Pasadena convention center. I sent the AG office a copy of my original letter to the mayor and a photo of a sign excluding loaded firearms. Here is the text of my complaint to the AG:

There were two temporary signs displayed outside at the entrance to a gun show. The photo of one sign is uploaded. There was a uniformed Pasadena police officer at the door enforcing the prohibition of loaded concealed handguns.

The convention center displayed 30.06 signs in the past. I wrote a letter to Pasadena Mayor Johnny Isbel notifying him of the offense under SB 273. Apparently he took notice of my letter because there was no 30.06 sign present.

I contend that the sign that was present is prohibited under SB 273 because SB 273 is not limited to the 30.06 sign. SB 273 prohibits any sign that excludes holders of a CHL.

The gun show promoter with the explicit approval of the City of Pasadena is attempting to enforce a rule that is over and above that which is permitted by state law. I expect the the preemption law prohibits them from doing so.

hmmm LT. causin trouble again?

[locke_n_load]

I filed an AG complaint about the Fort Worth Gun Show in September. Have not heard anything back. Fort Worth claimed the event organizer posted the sign.

Got a reply from AG liasion officer Captain Gregory Lewis telling me I need to follow the chain. That is complain to Will Rogers first. I got a response from the gun show organizer. Thought I would share.

"All gun shows in Texas that I am aware of are posted 30.06.



The issue is not that the gun is open or concealed carry but that it is loaded. Once the gun is unloaded, the method of carry is not an issue. All guns including concealed carry must be unloaded prior to entry into the show. Through the purchase of a ticket, you are entering a private event into a space under the control of a private entity. As a condition of entry to that private event, all guns must be unloaded. We have additional signage to that effect at our shows."

Once there is a test case, the court will rule that requiring a license holder to unload their weapon, on publicly owned/leased property, is against the intent of the carry laws in Texas. Or if we have an AG decision prior to that.
I think that's what it's going to take.

[Jim Beaux]

I believe I read it here but: the city requires insurance in order to rent the venue & the gun show organizer cant get insurance unless he abides by the insurance company's provisions. The insurance company stipulates the firearm policies.

[jimlongley]

I believe I read it here but: the city requires insurance in order to rent the venue & the gun show organizer cant get insurance unless he abides by the insurance company's provisions. The insurance company stipulates the firearm policies.

Too bad. If your insurance company required you to have blinking red and blue lights on top of your vehicle, would they pay the fines? The insurance company is going to have to live with the law.

Mentioned above, the gun show organizer says that by buying a ticket you enter into a contract and so on, in which case a 30.06 sign becomes unnecessary and in light of the law, illegal to post. They are going to have to put up another sign.

[EEllis]

Once there is a test case, the court will rule that requiring a license holder to unload their weapon, on publicly owned/leased property, is against the intent of the carry laws in Texas. Or if we have an AG decision prior to that.
I think that's what it's going to take.

The problem is there is always a chance of such things backfiring and making an unwanted precedent. If lets say a Zoo tried doing this I think it would be a much better case more likely to turn out how you want. With it being at a gun show if it got to a court, which is no sure thing, a court could rule against you even if the law tended to agree with you.And that's even if it gets there because intent is only supposed to matter when the language is unclear. Here there is just nothing in the language of SB273 addressing the issue. So the whole thing could end up needing a legislative fix like the 30.06 issue did. Sure it may not be legal to post the signs but there is just no penalty for doing so. The 30.06 were illegal and unenforceable but they still have some up.

[AJSully421]

If anything, their ploy is a testament to the good nature of all of us in the CHL community.

These leftist wackos know that we are such good and honest people that they can "fake us out" and put up illegal and even improper signs and they do this knowing that we will most likely abide by them because we are so incredibly law-abiding.

[dhoobler]

Why not just have anyone who wants to holster or sell a handgun have it tagged (ziptied) at the door. Concealed handguns carried for defensive purposes cannot be removed from cover at any time except for legal self defense purposes. Any CHL holder removing their carry piece is breaking the law. It could easily argued that unloaded zipped handguns are handled for "sporting" purposes and are exempt from concealed requirements while a loaded weapon is not. This doesn't seem that difficult to me.

For the most part this is how it's been done. Sure they had the 30.06 signs but I carrried past them knowing they were unenforceable. The City cops knew they were unenforceable and even a HCSO made a statement, saw it in an article but don't remember well enough to find it, that called it a house rule referring to the GRB convention center and 30.06. But it made people keep their concealed firearms concealed. I wounder about how OC will work with the gun shows.

http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitics/2 ... rity-jobs/

Off-duty city police replaced in gun show security jobs
By Mike Morris on January 24, 2013 at 5:38 PM

On Thursday we got a call from Mary Bean, who, with her husband, owns High Caliber Gun & Knife Shows, Inc., which regularly rents space at the city’s George R. Brown Convention Center, including this weekend.

Bean said that off-duty Houston police officers who have provided security for her shows for many years were barred this week from performing their normal duties, such as tying patrons’ guns so they can’t be dry-fired, ensuring guns are unloaded, and walking the aisles, providing a presence at the show.

Houston Police Officers Union president Ray Hunt said the officers were prevented from carrying out these duties because they violate department policies regarding off-duty jobs. The gun show’s rules are that people can’t bring a concealed handgun into the show, but state law allows patrons to do so. That makes the show’s decision a house rule, he said, and HPD policy prohibits its officers from enforcing house rules.

“It’s not that they were suspended for any reason for danger to the public or danger to the officers. It was simply that they were being asked to enforce a rule that is not a law, and we can’t do that,” Hunt said. “When it’s brought to our attention that house rules are being enforced, we make sure that that policy is changed. If the officer can’t enforce house rules, why would the vendor want to pay them?”

The issue apparently was raised in a complaint by a gun show attendee, Bean said.

[dhoobler]

Today I filed a complaint the the attorney general about the exclusion of CHL firearms from the gun show at the Pasadena convention center. I sent the AG office a copy of my original letter to the mayor and a photo of a sign excluding loaded firearms. Here is the text of my complaint to the AG:

There were two temporary signs displayed outside at the entrance to a gun show. The photo of one sign is uploaded. There was a uniformed Pasadena police officer at the door enforcing the prohibition of loaded concealed handguns.

The convention center displayed 30.06 signs in the past. I wrote a letter to Pasadena Mayor Johnny Isbel notifying him of the offense under SB 273. Apparently he took notice of my letter because there was no 30.06 sign present.

I contend that the sign that was present is prohibited under SB 273 because SB 273 is not limited to the 30.06 sign. SB 273 prohibits any sign that excludes holders of a CHL.

The gun show promoter with the explicit approval of the City of Pasadena is attempting to enforce a rule that is over and above that which is permitted by state law. I expect the the preemption law prohibits them from doing so.

hmmm LT. causin trouble again?

Its what I do SSG.

[RoyGBiv]

Why not just have anyone who wants to holster or sell a handgun have it tagged (ziptied) at the door. Concealed handguns carried for defensive purposes cannot be removed from cover at any time except for legal self defense purposes. Any CHL holder removing their carry piece is breaking the law. It could easily argued that unloaded zipped handguns are handled for "sporting" purposes and are exempt from concealed requirements while a loaded weapon is not. This doesn't seem that difficult to me.

For the most part this is how it's been done. Sure they had the 30.06 signs but I carrried past them knowing they were unenforceable. The City cops knew they were unenforceable and even a HCSO made a statement, saw it in an article but don't remember well enough to find it, that called it a house rule referring to the GRB convention center and 30.06. But it made people keep their concealed firearms concealed. I wounder about how OC will work with the gun shows.

http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitics/2 ... rity-jobs/

Off-duty city police replaced in gun show security jobs
By Mike Morris on January 24, 2013 at 5:38 PM

On Thursday we got a call from Mary Bean, who, with her husband, owns High Caliber Gun & Knife Shows, Inc., which regularly rents space at the city’s George R. Brown Convention Center, including this weekend.

Bean said that off-duty Houston police officers who have provided security for her shows for many years were barred this week from performing their normal duties, such as tying patrons’ guns so they can’t be dry-fired, ensuring guns are unloaded, and walking the aisles, providing a presence at the show.

Houston Police Officers Union president Ray Hunt said the officers were prevented from carrying out these duties because they violate department policies regarding off-duty jobs. The gun show’s rules are that people can’t bring a concealed handgun into the show, but state law allows patrons to do so. That makes the show’s decision a house rule, he said, and HPD policy prohibits its officers from enforcing house rules.

“It’s not that they were suspended for any reason for danger to the public or danger to the officers. It was simply that they were being asked to enforce a rule that is not a law, and we can’t do that,” Hunt said. “When it’s brought to our attention that house rules are being enforced, we make sure that that policy is changed. If the officer can’t enforce house rules, why would the vendor want to pay them?”

The issue apparently was raised in a complaint by a gun show attendee, Bean said.

[AJSully421]

Anyone have access to the Fort Worth PD off duty regs? I'd be interested if there is a "house rules" provision in there.