Would this sign work for our Church

[ScottDLS]

"And the sign said...All are welcome, come in, kneel down, and pray.... And when they passed around the plate and the end of it all, I didn't have a penny to pay...So I took out a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign...I said "Thank you, Lord for thinkin' 'bout me, I'm carrying and doin' fine!!

Chorus: Signs, signs, everywhere signs...

(credit to the "Five Man Electrical Band")

[The Annoyed Man]

Those are some great points oljames3! I really like how yall are handling the situation, I will definetly bring that up in our next meeting. We have several people that carry concealed at all times for security measures we just have several "voting" people believe that the church isn't ready for open carry. We currently have 30.07 signs up but they are big white signs screwed to the brick, very ugly. I saw these signs on the school door and they are much more unobtrustive that what we are currently using. So until we are able to win everyone over on not having signs at all, I want to see if we can use these signs instead. But I will seriously repeat what you said above and see if that will work for us. Thanks!

First, welcome to the forum.

The part I have highlighted in red above bears examination. Are those people who are carrying concealed "for security measures" actually doing so as part of the church's official security policy? The law requires that any church security personnel be either a professionally-licensed and uniformed armed security officer (requires open carry) or an off-duty LEO. If those individuals you mention who are carrying concealed are part of the church's official security team, and they are NOT off-duty LEOs, they (and the church) are breaking the law.

Now, many of us carry in church. I carry in church, even on stage. My church is posted 30.07, so everyone who carries at my church under the authority of their LTC is doing so concealed. However, each of us who do so at my church are carrying for "personal reasons", and are not part of the church's official security posture. We have congregation members who ARE part of the official security posture, all of whom are off-duty LEO carrying concealed, and wearing the official security team's polo shirt identifying them as such.

My personal reasons for concealed carry at church include (but are not limited to) my love of my church family in addition to the other usual reasons of self-protection and protection of my family. When the official team was put together, I already knew most of them, and I went and spoke with each of them. I told each one that if something actually went down, I might well draw my gun, and I wanted them to each recognize me as a good guy and not shoot me. But I am NOT part of the church's official security posture, because it would be illegal for me to be part of it since I am neither a licensed uniformed security officer nor an LEO.

I'm sure that others can cover the details of the law better than I can, but this has been an ongoing issue, and there have been past attempts to get churches exempted from the current requirements, but the resistance (and political capital) of the security industry lobby is strong and has been to date insurmountable. We can always hope that will change.

[ScottDLS]

TAM -

Can a licensed security officer with w/ a Personal Protection Authorization carry concealed as part of a Church Security force?

-Scott

[rtschl]

TAM -

Can a licensed security officer with w/ a Personal Protection Authorization carry concealed as part of a Church Security force?

-Scott

Scott, short answer is no. His security company would have to authorize and be hired/contracted by the church.

In the past our church security team contracted with a security company for us to be licensed for Level III and Level IV, Uniformed Armed Security Officer and Personal Protection Officer respectively at our church only. We are volunteers, but our church paid the security company a fee to cover our insurance, training, and costs etc. You can also operate under a Letter of Authority with DPS but that only allows you to have Level III - no Level IV PPO. You still have to have the licensing, training and insurance. We did that for a while but finally decided to form our own security company.

That is not an option for most churches, especially small ones. But neither is paying for security or LEO's. I hope the security exception for churches & non-profits is one of the legislative priorities next session.

[oljames3]

Maybe you should put up signs like this:

Concealed Carry Sign.jpg

This is the sign which Jimmie, the owner of the local gun shop in Elgin, Texas, displays at his eponymous gun shop.

[treadlightly]

The sermon on the mount was delivered to an armed audience, mostly open carrying their staves and knives - but I get the current context. The proper emotional reaction to an openly carried firearm is warmth and peace, unless the firearm appears not to be properly cared for, in an inappropriate holster, or in some other way suggests it's unloved.

Not everyone sees it that way.

It's probably completely ineffective, but I like to point out 30.06/07 doesn't apply to 97% of the population. The only people filtered by those signs are those few who jumped through the hoops to get licensed.

A murderer commits no additional crime by walking past those signs with a gun. If the signs are there, he might walk back out after destroying lives, past them again - and still the sign law has no effect. I make, of course, the statistically justifiable assumption the murderer isn't a license holder. That, thankfully, doesn't happen.

The signs do not apply to the general population and DPS stats indicate they do not ever solve a problem or contribute to safety. They just don't.

Personally, I don't like 30.07 but deal with it. 30.06, I look for somewhere else to be.

[Abraham]

TAM you posted: "My personal reasons for concealed carry at church include (but are not limited to) my love of my church family..."

Doesn't that statement make you de facto church security?

[ScottDLS]

TAM -

Can a licensed security officer with w/ a Personal Protection Authorization carry concealed as part of a Church Security force?

-Scott

Scott, short answer is no. His security company would have to authorize and be hired/contracted by the church.

In the past our church security team contracted with a security company for us to be licensed for Level III and Level IV, Uniformed Armed Security Officer and Personal Protection Officer respectively at our church only. We are volunteers, but our church paid the security company a fee to cover our insurance, training, and costs etc. You can also operate under a Letter of Authority with DPS but that only allows you to have Level III - no Level IV PPO. You still have to have the licensing, training and insurance. We did that for a while but finally decided to form our own security company.

That is not an option for most churches, especially small ones. But neither is paying for security or LEO's. I hope the security exception for churches & non-profits is one of the legislative priorities next session.

This is what I thought... In other words a Level IV PPO & his associated company could legally work under contract to a Church and carry CONCEALED. I wasn't sure if TAM was implying that Church security can never carry concealed.

[rtschl]

This is what I thought... In other words a Level IV PPO & his associated company could legally work under contract to a Church and carry CONCEALED. I wasn't sure if TAM was implying that Church security can never carry concealed.

From what I have been told DPS is adamant that a church can not organize or "look" like security without being licensed. That includes wearing any type of identification as security, stationing people, training for scenarios etc. If you put someone in your children's area to "keep an eye on things" or have someone "stationed" anywhere (parking lot, worship center, etc.) then DPS considers that security and those people cannot be armed because they are acting as security. Calling it something other than security like sheepdog, safety team, etc. does not give you a pass.

If you are an usher, deacon, teacher, minister, member, etc. and carry while in that capacity that is not an issue as your role is not security.

[ScottDLS]

But if my Church, hires a licensed security company to pay a level IV PPO to protect the Church, they can carry concealed and don't have to wear a uniform other than the identifying PPO shield or patch, right?

[Pawpaw]

Maybe you should put up signs like this:

Concealed Carry Sign.jpg

This is the sign which Jimmie, the owner of the local gun shop in Elgin, Texas, displays at his eponymous gun shop.

I sort of doubt it. You see, I changed one word in the pic.

"Holstered" became "concealed".

[The Annoyed Man]

TAM you posted: "My personal reasons for concealed carry at church include (but are not limited to) my love of my church family..."

Doesn't that statement make you de facto church security?

Not at all, because I am acting strictly on my own initiative and not acting in any kind of official capacity. Nobody asked me to. I never "cleared it" with anybody. Other than the above mentioned step of letting them know I carry, I've never coordinated with the security team in any way. I love the people of my church. 99% of my friends here in Texas are people I know through my church. We are all about doing life together, and they are my family in Texas. I consequently feel protective toward them, in somewhat the same way I do toward my real family. And by the way, I am FAR from being the only one who carries.......

[rtschl]

But if my Church, hires a licensed security company to pay a level IV PPO to protect the Church, they can carry concealed and don't have to wear a uniform other than the identifying PPO shield or patch, right?

PPO/Lev IV does not wear uniform as your weapon must be concealed and in plain clothes. When I am working PPO, I am completely concealed except for the radio ear piece everyone can see.

[thetexan]

Sorry, I didn't express myself well enough. The sign the church wants to put up is a 30.07 posting. I understand the photo shows a 30.06. My question is is that sign, (ie. Font, size, color, transparent background,etc..) legal or not?

Much debate has been had over stenciled lettering as to whether there is the required contrast between letters and background, specifically, whether the multi-colored background resulting from the clearness of the glass might not provide the required contrast.

This hasn't been tested as far as I know, certainly no case law.

tex

[Soccerdad1995]

This is what I thought... In other words a Level IV PPO & his associated company could legally work under contract to a Church and carry CONCEALED. I wasn't sure if TAM was implying that Church security can never carry concealed.

From what I have been told DPS is adamant that a church can not organize or "look" like security without being licensed. That includes wearing any type of identification as security, stationing people, training for scenarios etc. If you put someone in your children's area to "keep an eye on things" or have someone "stationed" anywhere (parking lot, worship center, etc.) then DPS considers that security and those people cannot be armed because they are acting as security. Calling it something other than security like sheepdog, safety team, etc. does not give you a pass.

If you are an usher, deacon, teacher, minister, member, etc. and carry while in that capacity that is not an issue as your role is not security.

I'm curious as to whether this DPS view would be constitutional. It seems like a clear violation of the 2A to take away my right to keep and bear arms just because a church leader asked me to stand near the front door and greet people as they walk in. What is the relevant law that DPS is relying on here?

Am I misunderstanding your post? What if the church leaders don't even know that I am armed when they ask me to do something in a specific area?