Pepper Spray question

[cmgee67]

Hey guys I'm rolling Pepper/OC spray to my EDC now because I feel that it is important to have an option other than going straight to deadly force. I don't ever want to take a life just prevent harm to myself family friends and others and this gives me a less lethal option before having to draw my firearm. A guy I work with was attacked by a Pit bull and it sent him to the hospital so my boss has asked me to look into carrying pepper spray. Btw I am allowed to carry my gun at work and I do but any ways I just bought a can of the sabre crossfire stream pepper spray in a 1.5 oz container and some of the sabre 3 in 1 stream spray in the 4.36 oz container. I have looked at the Texas penal code and all it says is that it must be in a small chemical dispenser. Well that is about as clear as mud. So could I carry my 4.36oz can or do I need to carry the 1.5oz? I don't want to get into trouble. Anybody on here able to shed some light? It would be much appreciated. Btw the Crossfire contains 10% OC and I believe the 3 in 1 does as well and it also contains UV chemicals to help in locating the suspect in case that has anything to do with it.

[vjallen75]

My wife went online and found an app that will tell you of sex offenders in the area. She now wants our children to carry around pepper spray only when they walk the neighborhood. I am not sure how I feel about this because my youngest son is 8 ranging to my oldest being 15. I would like to know as well what kind is allowed to carry. May add it to my EDC as well. I like your idea of having a less than lethal option.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't ever want to take a life just [to] prevent harm to myself family friends and others....

Certainly having a non-lethal option is not a bad idea, and if you feel like it would fit in your EDC, then by all means get some. But I'm not sure about what you wrote above. Actually, I am sure how I feel, but I just wanted to check to see if this is what you really meant........because to me, preventing harm to my family, self, and friends is THE reason for carrying an instrument of deadly force, and "just to prevent" makes it sound like you don't think those things are worth the use of deadly force if necessary to protect them. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant, or else why would you carry a gun at all?

But if it helps you to clarify for yourself how you feel about use of force and deadly force, maybe it will help you to be reminded that:

1. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat.
2. Better than 80% of gunshot patients survive being shot. This is due to two reasons: (1) handguns are not some kind of magic talisman of death; and (2) most gunshot patients are going to be inside of a trauma center will within the "golden hour". So just because you shot someone doesn't mean that you "took their life".
3. IF, heaven forbid, you are put in a position where you have to shoot someone, that someone is the person who put you in that position through their actions, right? We don't start fights, we do not drink to excess, we practice deescalation and conflict resolution, right? We take the extra steps - through practicing good situational awareness and exercising good judgement - in order to avoid trouble. But sometimes, trouble will find you despite your best efforts to avoid it. IF your lawful use of deadly force actually does result in the death of your assailant, you didn't take his life, he took his own life......under the heading of "don't start none, and there won't be none.....

So, it is certainly a reasonable thing to have pepper spray available to defuse a situation which has defied your verbal deescalation and conflict resolution methods and which continues to escalate despite your best efforts. But not all assaults are cases of escalation. Sometimes they come out of the blue, and you won't have time to defuse the situation because it is already out of control. Or, the pepper spray, no matter how well deserved, might simply enrage an already aggressive individual into a blind fury and an attack.

Either way, don't ever question the validity of doing whatever it takes to protect yourself and or family, friends, etc., not as long as you're a peaceful person who doesn't start these things.

[Jusme]

I don't ever want to take a life just [to] prevent harm to myself family friends and others....

Certainly having a non-lethal option is not a bad idea, and if you feel like it would fit in your EDC, then by all means get some. But I'm not sure about what you wrote above. Actually, I am sure how I feel, but I just wanted to check to see if this is what you really meant........because to me, preventing harm to my family, self, and friends is THE reason for carrying an instrument of deadly force, and "just to prevent" makes it sound like you don't think those things are worth the use of deadly force if necessary to protect them. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant, or else why would you carry a gun at all?

But if it helps you to clarify for yourself how you feel about use of force and deadly force, maybe it will help you to be reminded that:

1. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat.
2. Better than 80% of gunshot patients survive being shot. This is due to two reasons: (1) handguns are not some kind of magic talisman of death; and (2) most gunshot patients are going to be inside of a trauma center will within the "golden hour". So just because you shot someone doesn't mean that you "took their life".
3. IF, heaven forbid, you are put in a position where you have to shoot someone, that someone is the person who put you in that position through their actions, right? We don't start fights, we do not drink to excess, we practice deescalation and conflict resolution, right? We take the extra steps - through practicing good situational awareness and exercising good judgement - in order to avoid trouble. But sometimes, trouble will find you despite your best efforts to avoid it. IF your lawful use of deadly force actually does result in the death of your assailant, you didn't take his life, he took his own life......under the heading of "don't start none, and there won't be none.....

So, it is certainly a reasonable thing to have pepper spray available to defuse a situation which has defied your verbal deescalation and conflict resolution methods and which continues to escalate despite your best efforts. But not all assaults are cases of escalation. Sometimes they come out of the blue, and you won't have time to defuse the situation because it is already out of control. Or, the pepper spray, no matter how well deserved, might simply enrage an already aggressive individual into a blind fury and an attack.

Either way, don't ever question the validity of doing whatever it takes to protect yourself and or family, friends, etc., not as long as you're a peaceful person who doesn't start these things.

Well said, as usual, TAM. I keep pepper spray in my Get Home bag in my truck, not so much for two legged threats but more for the four legged variety I may encounter if forced to hoof it home. In a Excrement Contacting the Rotating Turbine situation, I may not want to draw undo attention to myself on my trek, which gunshots could definitely do. But a well placed stream of pepper spray to the face of a dog who believes he is defending his territory, will usually dissuade him. It is not something I have for EDC because I feel I carry enough extra weight as it is, but for the potential situation I mentioned.
I would be hesitant to use pepper spray on anyone especially if the encounter has already turned violent, I have seen people simply shrug it off and continue to attack, which would then cost me precious seconds to switch from pepper spray to my firearm, if the situation escalated. My theory, and it's only a theory, is that if pepper spray will work to diffuse a violent encounter, then so would the presence of a handgun pointed at the attacker, and if it doesn't the next progression in the deadly force scale is already available.JMHO

Edit: To answer the OP question, I don't think it would matter as to the size of pepper spray you carry, since there is no definitive explanation of "small" as long as it is something easily carried on a belt, in a pocket, etc.. either one should be OK.

[vjallen75]

I don't ever want to take a life just [to] prevent harm to myself family friends and others....

Certainly having a non-lethal option is not a bad idea, and if you feel like it would fit in your EDC, then by all means get some. But I'm not sure about what you wrote above. Actually, I am sure how I feel, but I just wanted to check to see if this is what you really meant........because to me, preventing harm to my family, self, and friends is THE reason for carrying an instrument of deadly force, and "just to prevent" makes it sound like you don't think those things are worth the use of deadly force if necessary to protect them. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant, or else why would you carry a gun at all?

But if it helps you to clarify for yourself how you feel about use of force and deadly force, maybe it will help you to be reminded that:

1. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat.
2. Better than 80% of gunshot patients survive being shot. This is due to two reasons: (1) handguns are not some kind of magic talisman of death; and (2) most gunshot patients are going to be inside of a trauma center will within the "golden hour". So just because you shot someone doesn't mean that you "took their life".
3. IF, heaven forbid, you are put in a position where you have to shoot someone, that someone is the person who put you in that position through their actions, right? We don't start fights, we do not drink to excess, we practice deescalation and conflict resolution, right? We take the extra steps - through practicing good situational awareness and exercising good judgement - in order to avoid trouble. But sometimes, trouble will find you despite your best efforts to avoid it. IF your lawful use of deadly force actually does result in the death of your assailant, you didn't take his life, he took his own life......under the heading of "don't start none, and there won't be none.....

So, it is certainly a reasonable thing to have pepper spray available to defuse a situation which has defied your verbal deescalation and conflict resolution methods and which continues to escalate despite your best efforts. But not all assaults are cases of escalation. Sometimes they come out of the blue, and you won't have time to defuse the situation because it is already out of control. Or, the pepper spray, no matter how well deserved, might simply enrage an already aggressive individual into a blind fury and an attack.

Either way, don't ever question the validity of doing whatever it takes to protect yourself and or family, friends, etc., not as long as you're a peaceful person who doesn't start these things.

Well said, as usual, TAM. I keep pepper spray in my Get Home bag in my truck, not so much for two legged threats but more for the four legged variety I may encounter if forced to hoof it home. In a Excrement Contacting the Rotating Turbine situation, I may not want to draw undo attention to myself on my trek, which gunshots could definitely do. But a well placed stream of pepper spray to the face of a dog who believes he is defending his territory, will usually dissuade him. It is not something I have for EDC because I feel I carry enough extra weight as it is, but for the potential situation I mentioned.
I would be hesitant to use pepper spray on anyone especially if the encounter has already turned violent, I have seen people simply shrug it off and continue to attack, which would then cost me precious seconds to switch from pepper spray to my firearm, if the situation escalated. My theory, and it's only a theory, is that if pepper spray will work to diffuse a violent encounter, then so would the presence of a handgun pointed at the attacker, and if it doesn't the next progression in the deadly force scale is already available.JMHO

Never looked at it that way, good way to put it. @ Jusme and T.A.M.

[goose]

IF your lawful use of deadly force actually does result in the death of your assailant, you didn't take his life, he took his own life......

A great post by TAM. And to drive his point home, even from a leagaleze standpoint, this is absolutely valid. If a criminal (criminal A) is involved in crime with others and one of the others commits a murder, criminal A can be charged with murder as well. Criminal A robs a bank, and later is a passenger in the get-away car that runs over a pedestrian. They can still be charged in the death of the pedestrian even if they weren't driving.

When your assailant chose to become an assailant, THEY chose to take on the ramifications of their actions. THEY are responsible for causing your need to negate their threat. Your goal is to protect your family lawfully and to the best of your ability. I know this sounds counter intuitive but the introduction of pepper spray while you are carrying also introduces the doubt to the jury that maybe it wasn't as bad as you say otherwise you would have drawn the pistol? EDIT: in the civil case they bring afterwards.

[drjoker]

Why do you think cops carry pepper spray? Because not everything is a nail. However, if all you carry is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but it won't look like that to a jury of your peers. In other words, not everything is a life or death situation needing a gun. However, you may still need to protect yourself and your family.

Let's put it this way. I have never shot anybody with a gun, but I have used non-lethal devices before. During the day, I carry pepper spray and a gun but at night I carry a flashlight and a gun. Some situations that have happened to me;

1. While jogging, a small to medium sized dog charges me while barking. This is not a large dog. I would probably not die but would still get hurt if bitten. It is not a life and death situation. I did not draw my pistol. I have a jogging aggressive dog kit / procedure. I yelled, "sit!" If it sits, fine, I give it a dog treat and continue jogging. If it ignores my tasty treat / command and continues charging me, then I'll deploy the pepper spray. I have used this routine for years and it has been very effective. A large dog like a pit bull or german shepherd would get a dog treat backed by a pistol not pepper spray. However, luckily, I have never had an encounter with an aggressive, loose big dog before (thank God). The little dogs have always gone for the treat so I've never had to use pepper spray nor a gun on a dog before. At night, the pepper spray gets replaced with a blinding tactical flashlight.

2. Same goes for aggressive humans. Bums who approach me while jogging get a dollar bill rubber banded around a nerf ball thrown at them. While they are trying to catch the dollar bill, I'm running away, "here, buy some food, have a nice day." If they continue approaching me, then they'll get the pepper spray or flashlight. However, nobody has ever continued approaching me after receiving the dollar. If it is a young guy running at me asking for the time with one hand under his hoodie reaching for something in his waistband, I'll pull out my gun like it's a watch and tell him an imaginary time. I will NOT pull out my phone and check for the time. When you run, you naturally want to pump both arms in unison with your legs. It is unnatural to run while pumping one arm but with the other hand tucked behind the bottom of your hoodie in your waistband. If it is two young guys who were walking together but suddenly decide to walk separately and approach me from two different angles, I immediately draw my guns (one in each hand). You should always practice ambidextrous shooting because your dominant hand might get shot in a gun fight. Luckily, while jogging, I've never been approached by aggressive humans who aren't bums. I've only been approached by bums, who are harmless. It takes initiative to attack another human being who has no quarrel with you. A bum obviously has no initiative.

[parabelum]

If it is a young guy running at me asking for the time with one hand under his hoodie reaching for something in his waistband, I'll pull out my gun like it's a watch and tell him an imaginary time.

huh?

If it is two young guys who were walking together but suddenly decide to walk separately and approach me from two different angles, I immediately draw my guns (one in each hand).

What if there are 5 of them coming from 5 different directions?

A bum obviously has no initiative.

Some do...some do...

[parabelum]

I don't ever want to take a life just [to] prevent harm to myself family friends and others....

Certainly having a non-lethal option is not a bad idea, and if you feel like it would fit in your EDC, then by all means get some. But I'm not sure about what you wrote above. Actually, I am sure how I feel, but I just wanted to check to see if this is what you really meant........because to me, preventing harm to my family, self, and friends is THE reason for carrying an instrument of deadly force, and "just to prevent" makes it sound like you don't think those things are worth the use of deadly force if necessary to protect them. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't what you meant, or else why would you carry a gun at all?

But if it helps you to clarify for yourself how you feel about use of force and deadly force, maybe it will help you to be reminded that:

1. We don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat.
2. Better than 80% of gunshot patients survive being shot. This is due to two reasons: (1) handguns are not some kind of magic talisman of death; and (2) most gunshot patients are going to be inside of a trauma center will within the "golden hour". So just because you shot someone doesn't mean that you "took their life".
3. IF, heaven forbid, you are put in a position where you have to shoot someone, that someone is the person who put you in that position through their actions, right? We don't start fights, we do not drink to excess, we practice deescalation and conflict resolution, right? We take the extra steps - through practicing good situational awareness and exercising good judgement - in order to avoid trouble. But sometimes, trouble will find you despite your best efforts to avoid it. IF your lawful use of deadly force actually does result in the death of your assailant, you didn't take his life, he took his own life......under the heading of "don't start none, and there won't be none.....

So, it is certainly a reasonable thing to have pepper spray available to defuse a situation which has defied your verbal deescalation and conflict resolution methods and which continues to escalate despite your best efforts. But not all assaults are cases of escalation. Sometimes they come out of the blue, and you won't have time to defuse the situation because it is already out of control. Or, the pepper spray, no matter how well deserved, might simply enrage an already aggressive individual into a blind fury and an attack.

Either way, don't ever question the validity of doing whatever it takes to protect yourself and or family, friends, etc., not as long as you're a peaceful person who doesn't start these things.

Words of wisdom TAM!

[drjoker]

If it is a young guy running at me asking for the time with one hand under his hoodie reaching for something in his waistband, I'll pull out my gun like it's a watch and tell him an imaginary time.

huh?

Stick up guys like to approach you asking for the time so;
1. You're looking at your watch or phone and not paying attention to them because they are pulling out their gun while you are checking for the time.
2. They want to know if you have a weapon. If your hands cannot be seen because they're in your pocket, they know that if they ask for the time, you'd have to get your hands out of your pocket to check for the time. Once you pull your hands out of your pocket and both hands are holding a phone checking for the time, they'll know that your hands are not on a weapon so they can safely rob you.

If someone approaches you asking for the time and both hands are not visible, a good option is to pull out your gun and pretend it is a watch, "It's 5 o'clock." If you are jogging in very bad neighborhood, this is an option. Another option is to have a revolver in your pocket. You don't have to draw your weapon but can fire through your pocket, if necessary. Do NOT check for the time. Just make something up, "It's 5 o'clock," while keeping an eye on their hands but with your hand on your revolver in your pocket (finger off trigger for safety).

[twomillenium]

Jogging? Jogging? What is that? I keep hearing people talk about it and I am just curious as to what it really is all about.

[Abraham]

parabelum,

If you deploy pepper spray gain from my lessons: Keep sudecon decontamination wipes with you.

I bought mine from "Defensive Devices" and they cost $1.49 each.

I have an enormous amount of experience using pepper spray against attacking dogs.

Tips: You must never spray into the wind as the blow-back will get you. This sounds like Captain Obvious information, but trust me, when under attack some of the most obvious "don'ts" get forgotten. However, you can spray into the wind "IF" you spray well below eye level and yes some will blow back onto your legs. If you're wearing shorts, your bear legs will most likely get hit and hurt like you've been scorched by a blow torch. Decon wipes will stop the pain almost immediately. Also, if you do get spray into your face including your eyes you can wring out the decon liquid out of the wipes into your eyes and the pain will very soon stop.

Also, if being attacked by an aggressor/dog or human from behind, while continuing to look forward, you can spray with the can held in an upside down position using a rapid Z pattern spray behind you. I've stopped many a dog in it's tracks when they're chasing just behind me using this method. Note: Don't turn around to do this, especially when pedaling furiously on a bicycle. It's not necessary to see the attacking dog and you chance crashing with every moment while looking behind you to spray.

If the situation is ideal, that is the attacker is close and the wind is in your favor, don't aim the spray like you would a firearm. Aim slightly above the head and again use the "Z" pattern while deploying the spray. Aiming directly at the eyes usually results in the spray going to low to be effective.

I buy pepper spray by the case as I bicycle well out into the country and many an idiot dog owner let their dogs roam free to attack anyone walking or cycling. I've turned most of the attacking dogs with spray, some have been in the top 10 most dangerous.

One caveat: Pepper spray will turn "most" dogs, but not all and to be most effective you have to hit a mucous membrane, but on occasion some dogs simply getting a "sniff" of pepper spray will stop the attack...

Good luck!

[The Annoyed Man]

Jogging? Jogging? What is that? I keep hearing people talk about it and I am just curious as to what it really is all about.

You are obviously not an addict. (Thankfully, neither am I.......any longer.) But when I was an addict back in the 1970s, there used to be a group in Houston called "Runners Anonymous", and if you have an overwhelming urge to go running, you could give RA a call, and someone would show up at your house with a sixpack of beer and talk you out of it.

[twomillenium]

Jogging? Jogging? What is that? I keep hearing people talk about it and I am just curious as to what it really is all about.

You are obviously not an addict. (Thankfully, neither am I.......any longer.) But when I was an addict back in the 1970s, there used to be a group in Houston called "Runners Anonymous", and if you have an overwhelming urge to go running, you could give RA a call, and someone would show up at your house with a sixpack of beer and talk you out of it.

If you still have that number send it. I could pretend to be an addict and make the call? Of course I still need to find out what this jogging thing is.

[Jusme]

parabelum,

If you deploy pepper spray gain from my lessons: Keep sudecon decontamination wipes with you.

I bought mine from "Defensive Devices" and they cost $1.49 each.

I have an enormous amount of experience using pepper spray against attacking dogs.

Tips: You must never spray into the wind as the blow-back will get you. This sounds like Captain Obvious information, but trust me, when under attack some of the most obvious "don'ts" get forgotten. However, you can spray into the wind "IF" you spray well below eye level and yes some will blow back onto your legs. If you're wearing shorts, your bear legs will most likely get hit and hurt like you've been scorched by a blow torch. Decon wipes will stop the pain almost immediately. Also, if you do get spray into your face including your eyes you can wring out the decon liquid out of the wipes into your eyes and the pain will very soon stop.

Also, if being attacked by an aggressor/dog or human from behind, while continuing to look forward, you can spray with the can held in an upside down position using a rapid Z pattern spray behind you. I've stopped many a dog in it's tracks when they're chasing just behind me using this method. Note: Don't turn around to do this, especially when pedaling furiously on a bicycle. It's not necessary to see the attacking dog and you chance crashing with every moment while looking behind you to spray.

If the situation is ideal, that is the attacker is close and the wind is in your favor, don't aim the spray like you would a firearm. Aim slightly above the head and again use the "Z" pattern while deploying the spray. Aiming directly at the eyes usually results in the spray going to low to be effective.

I buy pepper spray by the case as I bicycle well out into the country and many an idiot dog owner let their dogs roam free to attack anyone walking or cycling. I've turned most of the attacking dogs with spray, some have been in the top 10 most dangerous.

One caveat: Pepper spray will turn "most" dogs, but not all and to be most effective you have to hit a mucous membrane, but on occasion some dogs simply getting a "sniff" of pepper spray will stop the attack...

Good luck!

Good tips Abraham, I'll admit it's been a,long time since I went jogging or cycling, but I do hike regularly, and have deployed pepper spray on someone's dog who had claimed the trail as his. One stream of well aimed spray, made him decide to claim a different location. The Z pattern makes sense especially in a windy situation.