Home Defense Weapon

"A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind!" Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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MechAg94
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#16

Post by MechAg94 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:02 pm

IMO, you need a pistol and a long gun. Beyond the need to use good hollow point pistol ammo, I vote to use what you trust to work. As far as the long gun, I think shotgun or 223 rifle are best for minimizing penetration. With the shotgun, you can select smaller buckshot which should penetrate less.

For me, I use a Zastava N-PAP AK. I have a rail mounted light and a magazine loaded with Winchester PDX defender ammo. I expect it to reliably expand and not act like FMJ. For short range accuracy it is more than adequate.

In all honesty, I think Bullet/Cartridge Selection is more important than caliber/gauge. Select a bullet type that has good soft tissue performance, but not designed to penetrate obstacles as much. A lot of police/military ammo is designed to penetrate light obstacles and still work. I think simple soft point hunting ammo might be better than law enforcement stuff if penetration is driving your decision. That applies to rifle or shotgun ammo. I am not sure where Win PDX ammo fits in that.

On the guns, your list has some pretty expensive selections. Reliability is key. You don't need an expensive battle rifle, just a good gun you trust. Preferably one that can mount a light and maybe a laser. A $400 defense shotgun will work. So will a $600 AK. So will a much less expensive AR. Whatever you get, put some rounds through it at the range and make sure it runs without any issues and handles the ammo you select.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#17

Post by superstar » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:09 pm

The hypothetical scenarios that I try to picture myself in is at least 4 intruders home invading, all armed. (I know that statistics states that most gun fights lasts just a few seconds, but I don't want to be placed in that category just because of Murphy's law) I would feel that the limitations of shotgun ammo would be a problem. I'm aware that you can load it with 6+1, plus shell saddles (+4) and stock saddles (+6) but I feel that it is not enough. I do carry inside the house until I go to bed. In the shooting test portion I had a perfect score and I try to go out to the range (shoot about 250 - 300 rounds) at least once a month when I'm back in town. I know practice gains confidence but I also know that I would be shooting at a moving targets that are shooting back at you, hence why I'm inclined with a pistol/sbr type of weapon because of higher mag capacity. I do like the idea of bigger holes but I also know that I'm not a sharp shooter and certainly not trying to make this topic into a caliber war... so for those that prefer a shotty, do you hunt? shoot clay? practice shooting at moving targets? why do you feel confident that you will not miss? (in the hypothetical scenario that you only have the shotty plus 17 rounds).


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#18

Post by cyphertext » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:11 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Nuts wrote:.223/5.56 has less of a chance of over penetration then 9mm.
I seriously doubt that... There's not nearly enough information in the hypothetical to make that blanket statement. As a rule, all else being equal (which it never is) the bullet with the greater velocity and less front facing surface area, will penetrate more of the same material, than the slower fatter one.

We've all seen the Youtube with the 9mm going through 5 sheets of drywall while the 5.56 doesn't. It's a cool video, but has effectively no application to real life. To get the best answer, you have to consider the material, the angle, the distance, the number of different materials, bullet type (FMJ, HP, JHP, lead, etc.), distance, and so on and so on. Just because somebody got a 55gr FMJ 5.56 round to tumble in a few sheets of drywall doesn't mean it's going to do the same thing in your house.

If I'm faced with a bad guy in my bedroom, and have a choice between my 9mm SIG and my 16" AR-15 carbine, I'm taking the pistol. If the guy's shooting at me from down the street, I'll take my rifle. No way I'm popping off a 5.56 in my house thinking it has less chance of hitting the kids' in their bedroom than a 9mm.
Experts in LE and military would disagree with you. Of course it comes down to bullet choice. I doubt that folks who are addressing penetration with 5.56mm are advocating using xm855 as the ammo of choice. But even the 55gr fmj has shown to lose velocity and break apart when impacting common household building materials such as sheetrock.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#19

Post by cyphertext » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:18 pm

superstar wrote:so for those that prefer a shotty, do you hunt? shoot clay? practice shooting at moving targets? why do you feel confident that you will not miss? (in the hypothetical scenario that you only have the shotty plus 17 rounds).
I don't think anyone is making the assumption that they will not miss with a shotgun. But on the other hand, I feel confident that if I hit center mass with 9, .30 cal pellets, the threat has most likely been stopped. I also realize that if I do miss, the sheet rock isn't stopping those pellets.

Yes, I do hunt and shoot skeet and sporting clays... but in my plan to hole up in the bedroom with the shotgun trained on the door, as the badguy comes into my room, his range of movement is very limited by the door frame, a wall, and some furniture.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#20

Post by superstar » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:25 pm

cyphertext wrote:
Yes, I do hunt and shoot skeet and sporting clays... but in my plan to hole up in the bedroom with the shotgun trained on the door, as the badguy comes into my room, his range of movement is very limited by the door frame, a wall, and some furniture.
Would you recommend shooting clay as the way to go to get proficient with a shotty? are there other methods to get better shooting with a shotty other than static targets?

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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#21

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:38 pm

I have confidence in all of my weapons for use inside the house, including pistols, shotgun, and AR carbines. And it's just my wife and me living there, so if something goes bump in the night, I'm not that concerned about whatever is on the other side of sheetrock, as long as the brick exterior contains any outbound lead, since anyone on the other side of the sheetrock doesn't belong there. MY issue is with hearing loss, of which I already have some, and the tremendous volume of noise from discharging a firearm within the walls of my home. I have a dog who is a good watch dog, but not particularly a good guard dog (doesn't follow commands well when his dander is up). I've chosen to go with a suppressed weapon - a .300 Blackout SBR loaded with subsonics - for home defense. I am frankly a little scared of touching off a 12 gauge inside the house. I'd do it if I had to, but I don't have to. When I get my Form 4 stamp approval which is currently pending for a pistol suppressor, I'll dedicate one of my Glock's to the "inside the house" role and retire the SBR for that role.

Agree that looking for trouble is trouble. Decide in advance where your home's redoubt is, and get there straightaway......call 911, describe yourself, say you are armed and with what, and where in the house you are holding out, and let the pros do their jobs.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#22

Post by MechAg94 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:42 pm

superstar wrote:The hypothetical scenarios that I try to picture myself in is at least 4 intruders home invading, all armed. (I know that statistics states that most gun fights lasts just a few seconds, but I don't want to be placed in that category just because of Murphy's law) I would feel that the limitations of shotgun ammo would be a problem. I'm aware that you can load it with 6+1, plus shell saddles (+4) and stock saddles (+6) but I feel that it is not enough. I do carry inside the house until I go to bed. In the shooting test portion I had a perfect score and I try to go out to the range (shoot about 250 - 300 rounds) at least once a month when I'm back in town. I know practice gains confidence but I also know that I would be shooting at a moving targets that are shooting back at you, hence why I'm inclined with a pistol/sbr type of weapon because of higher mag capacity. I do like the idea of bigger holes but I also know that I'm not a sharp shooter and certainly not trying to make this topic into a caliber war... so for those that prefer a shotty, do you hunt? shoot clay? practice shooting at moving targets? why do you feel confident that you will not miss? (in the hypothetical scenario that you only have the shotty plus 17 rounds).
I don't disagree with you. Choose the option that you are comfortable with and addresses your concerns. I chose a 7.62X39 AK with a 40 round magazine plus spare. The odds of me needing 40 rounds are very very small, but I like having it available. Good ammo is expensive and hard to find, but I just need to load mags and shoot a little to verify function.

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#23

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:54 pm

superstar wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Yes, I do hunt and shoot skeet and sporting clays... but in my plan to hole up in the bedroom with the shotgun trained on the door, as the badguy comes into my room, his range of movement is very limited by the door frame, a wall, and some furniture.
Would you recommend shooting clay as the way to go to get proficient with a shotty? are there other methods to get better shooting with a shotty other than static targets?
Shooting skeet is a great way to learn how to use a shotgun to hit an aerial target moving 40 mph at a tangent to your position. If that describes your intruder, then you're good to go. :mrgreen:

OTH, if you want to learn how to best use your shotgun in a tactical situation, enter some 3-gun matches, or get some shotgun specific tactical training from a reputable teacher.

Absent that, retreat to your fallback position (determined well in advance), preferably behind cover (remember concealment ≠ cover), call 911, and keep your shotgun trained on the door. If you try to defend the room by placing yourself at the doorway, and you get taken out, then everything and anyone that is precious to you that is in that room is at risk. OTH, if you stay back in the room behind cover, you place the BG in the position of having to transit the fatal funnel of the doorway to get to you. That means that you have a very narrow cone of area you have to defend as he is in the doorway, while he has a very large cone he has to divvy up to locate you and bring his weapons to bear on you. You have the defender's advantage.

With my suppressed SBR, I have 60 rounds of subsonic 208 grain .300 Blk on hand, all of which can be fired with a great deal of accuracy and a minimum of noise at CQB distances. The suppressor also effectively hides muzzle flash, so my own rounds don't blind me, assuming lights are off. And I have a weapon light mounted if that becomes necessary.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#24

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:23 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:Absent that, retreat to your fallback position (determined well in advance), preferably behind cover (remember concealment ≠ cover), call 911, and keep your shotgun trained on the door. If you try to defend the room by placing yourself at the doorway, and you get taken out, then everything and anyone that is precious to you that is in that room is at risk. OTH, if you stay back in the room behind cover, you place the BG in the position of having to transit the fatal funnel of the doorway to get to you. That means that you have a very narrow cone of area you have to defend as he is in the doorway, while he has a very large cone he has to divvy up to locate you and bring his weapons to bear on you. You have the defender's advantage.

With my suppressed SBR, I have 60 rounds of subsonic 208 grain .300 Blk on hand, all of which can be fired with a great deal of accuracy and a minimum of noise at CQB distances. The suppressor also effectively hides muzzle flash, so my own rounds don't blind me, assuming lights are off. And I have a weapon light mounted if that becomes necessary.
As always, TAM's advice is solid. I'm hoping 2017 brings about changes in suppressor laws and regulations that makes it quick and easy to obtain them.

Keep my 9mm S&W Shield with 8+1 loaded and 9mm Keltec Sub2000 with 33 round mag next to bed - both loaded with high performance hollow point ammo.

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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#25

Post by parabelum » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:48 pm

I vote for whichever gun is closest to me in a given situation, which to a 99.99% certainty will be way different from any hypothetical scenario I may have contemplated.

It could be my coach gun, KSG, AR pistol, G26, G23/32, my AR...Colt Navy .36 cal BP :shock: ...whichever is the closest at that moment.

In that moment one thing I know for certain, I will do my best to defend my family and stop the threat as quickly as possible.
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#26

Post by ScottDLS » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:48 pm

cyphertext wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
Nuts wrote:.223/5.56 has less of a chance of over penetration then 9mm.
I seriously doubt that... There's not nearly enough information in the hypothetical to make that blanket statement. As a rule, all else being equal (which it never is) the bullet with the greater velocity and less front facing surface area, will penetrate more of the same material, than the slower fatter one.

We've all seen the Youtube with the 9mm going through 5 sheets of drywall while the 5.56 doesn't. It's a cool video, but has effectively no application to real life. To get the best answer, you have to consider the material, the angle, the distance, the number of different materials, bullet type (FMJ, HP, JHP, lead, etc.), distance, and so on and so on. Just because somebody got a 55gr FMJ 5.56 round to tumble in a few sheets of drywall doesn't mean it's going to do the same thing in your house.

If I'm faced with a bad guy in my bedroom, and have a choice between my 9mm SIG and my 16" AR-15 carbine, I'm taking the pistol. If the guy's shooting at me from down the street, I'll take my rifle. No way I'm popping off a 5.56 in my house thinking it has less chance of hitting the kids' in their bedroom than a 9mm.

Experts in LE and military would disagree with you. Of course it comes down to bullet choice. I doubt that folks who are addressing penetration with 5.56mm are advocating using xm855 as the ammo of choice. But even the 55gr fmj has shown to lose velocity and break apart when impacting common household building materials such as sheetrock.
So the 5.56 tumbles in some materials...including people... Pick 5 common household materials and shoot with a 55gr FMJ and a 115gr 9mm. Decide which gun you want to hide behind all the materials from... I'll take the 9mm to be shot at with, especially out of a pistol, but even a carbine. Obviously a hypothetical...I'll pick neither in real life.

I've shot .223/5.56 out of rifles and 9mm out of pistols and machine pistols against all kinds of materials and the 5.56 almost always punches through. My apocryphal examples are Mini14 at a steel soda syrup canister. Rifle went through both sides. 9mm bounced off .357 went through one side. 1/2 in plywood rifle straight through, 9mm you could dig out of the dirt behind the plywood.

I would like to see something other than a Youtube video as evidence that a 9mm regularly penetrates more than a 5.56mm. :waiting:
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#27

Post by Bitter Clinger » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:46 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
superstar wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Yes, I do hunt and shoot skeet and sporting clays... but in my plan to hole up in the bedroom with the shotgun trained on the door, as the badguy comes into my room, his range of movement is very limited by the door frame, a wall, and some furniture.
Would you recommend shooting clay as the way to go to get proficient with a shotty? are there other methods to get better shooting with a shotty other than static targets?

OTH, if you want to learn how to best use your shotgun in a tactical situation, enter some 3-gun matches, or get some shotgun specific tactical training from a reputable teacher.
:iagree: There is a Defensive Shotgun class scheduled in the DFW area on January 8th:
http://txconcealedcarry.com/event/1839/
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#28

Post by C-dub » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:31 pm

Based on the options the OP gave I think it would all just come down to reliability and ease of use or familiarity of the user. Since they are all 9mm I don't see much or any different in effectiveness between either of those.

As far as the length of any gun battle goes, I think evidence shows for many break-ins or attacks once the BG receives resistance they tend to run away or shoot themselves if cornered. The later may be more in regards to being cornered by the police, but still.
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#29

Post by MechAg94 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:49 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
So the 5.56 tumbles in some materials...including people... Pick 5 common household materials and shoot with a 55gr FMJ and a 115gr 9mm. Decide which gun you want to hide behind all the materials from... I'll take the 9mm to be shot at with, especially out of a pistol, but even a carbine. Obviously a hypothetical...I'll pick neither in real life.

I've shot .223/5.56 out of rifles and 9mm out of pistols and machine pistols against all kinds of materials and the 5.56 almost always punches through. My apocryphal examples are Mini14 at a steel soda syrup canister. Rifle went through both sides. 9mm bounced off .357 went through one side. 1/2 in plywood rifle straight through, 9mm you could dig out of the dirt behind the plywood.

I would like to see something other than a Youtube video as evidence that a 9mm regularly penetrates more than a 5.56mm. :waiting:
If you set up say 6 sheets of sheet rock between you and the gun and the gun was pointed directly at you, the 9mm is more likely to plow straight through. The 223 is more likely to deflect and tumble after one or two layers. At least, that is what I have seen in the testing published online. The Box 'O Truth website was the first place I saw it tested.

Yes, 223 can penetrate a single layer of steel depending on how thick. But few people have much steel in the walls of their house. There isn't always a lot of difference, but 223 has a long thin bullet that is half the weight of the average 9mm bullet. It will slow down more quickly and deflect more easily despite traveling faster out of the muzzle. Once it tumbles, it will penetrate less and slow down more.

And of course, things can change depending on what type of bullet you are using. The 62 grain steel core penetrator rounds will likely behave differently from soft point hunting ammo.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#30

Post by BeanCounter » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:15 pm

Interesting penetration comparison

.223 55 grain HP vs .40 S&W 180 grain HP vs 12 ga 2 ¾" rifled slug.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26
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