Home Defense Weapon

"A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind!" Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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WTR
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#31

Post by WTR » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:07 pm

BeanCounter wrote:Interesting penetration comparison

.223 55 grain HP vs .40 S&W 180 grain HP vs 12 ga 2 ¾" rifled slug.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26
Interesting. However as this thread is concerning home defense I believe the use of a rifled 12 ga slug to be bogus. I always have slugs on my stock to be inserted if necessary, but I primaryly use either # 1 or # 4 buckshot. I think even 00 buck would be more " real world" for home defense.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#32

Post by doncb » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:49 pm

Really, all of the talk about putting several pieces of sheetrock together or even a few inches apart doesn't prove much. To be realistic you need to set up like your home. In my case, the next room that someone might be in is 12', a closet door, clothes and two layers of sheetrock away. To be realistic, a test would need to be set up that way. Worried about the room on the other side? Add 10' and another wall.
If you're standing still, you're loosing.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#33

Post by Nuts » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:21 pm

My first line of defense is a 130 lb German Shepard. Nobody's coming in that doesn't belong without him on them. Everyone's attention will be on him and not on me and I'm his back up.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#34

Post by rentz » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:14 pm

MechAg94 wrote:IMO, you need a pistol and a long gun. Beyond the need to use good hollow point pistol ammo, I vote to use what you trust to work. As far as the long gun, I think shotgun or 223 rifle are best for minimizing penetration. With the shotgun, you can select smaller buckshot which should penetrate less.

For me, I use a Zastava N-PAP AK. I have a rail mounted light and a magazine loaded with Winchester PDX defender ammo. I expect it to reliably expand and not act like FMJ. For short range accuracy it is more than adequate.

In all honesty, I think Bullet/Cartridge Selection is more important than caliber/gauge. Select a bullet type that has good soft tissue performance, but not designed to penetrate obstacles as much. A lot of police/military ammo is designed to penetrate light obstacles and still work. I think simple soft point hunting ammo might be better than law enforcement stuff if penetration is driving your decision. That applies to rifle or shotgun ammo. I am not sure where Win PDX ammo fits in that.

On the guns, your list has some pretty expensive selections. Reliability is key. You don't need an expensive battle rifle, just a good gun you trust. Preferably one that can mount a light and maybe a laser. A $400 defense shotgun will work. So will a $600 AK. So will a much less expensive AR. Whatever you get, put some rounds through it at the range and make sure it runs without any issues and handles the ammo you select.
Hmm never thought about using my npap...doesn't get much use because the stock kills me but if I buy a stock folding adapter it might get some use hmmmmm


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#35

Post by rentz » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:15 pm

Nuts wrote:My first line of defense is a 130 lb German Shepard. Nobody's coming in that doesn't belong without him on them. Everyone's attention will be on him and not on me and I'm his back up.
Same, my big ole mutt is the best defense system I've got. Nothing and I mean nothing gets past her and she's extremely protective ...and the whole thieves carrying treats and meat to fend off dogs won't work either, she won't eat from someone she doesn't know and trust


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#36

Post by WTR » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:35 pm

I have two large and protective dogs. However, they are just used as a alarm and a deterrent. I'm calling my girls to my bedroom ASAP so that I may protect them. Burglars can have my electronics. I've seen what a shotgun will do to a bad ass dog.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#37

Post by cyphertext » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:35 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
Nuts wrote:.223/5.56 has less of a chance of over penetration then 9mm.
I seriously doubt that... There's not nearly enough information in the hypothetical to make that blanket statement. As a rule, all else being equal (which it never is) the bullet with the greater velocity and less front facing surface area, will penetrate more of the same material, than the slower fatter one.

We've all seen the Youtube with the 9mm going through 5 sheets of drywall while the 5.56 doesn't. It's a cool video, but has effectively no application to real life. To get the best answer, you have to consider the material, the angle, the distance, the number of different materials, bullet type (FMJ, HP, JHP, lead, etc.), distance, and so on and so on. Just because somebody got a 55gr FMJ 5.56 round to tumble in a few sheets of drywall doesn't mean it's going to do the same thing in your house.

If I'm faced with a bad guy in my bedroom, and have a choice between my 9mm SIG and my 16" AR-15 carbine, I'm taking the pistol. If the guy's shooting at me from down the street, I'll take my rifle. No way I'm popping off a 5.56 in my house thinking it has less chance of hitting the kids' in their bedroom than a 9mm.

Experts in LE and military would disagree with you. Of course it comes down to bullet choice. I doubt that folks who are addressing penetration with 5.56mm are advocating using xm855 as the ammo of choice. But even the 55gr fmj has shown to lose velocity and break apart when impacting common household building materials such as sheetrock.
So the 5.56 tumbles in some materials...including people... Pick 5 common household materials and shoot with a 55gr FMJ and a 115gr 9mm. Decide which gun you want to hide behind all the materials from... I'll take the 9mm to be shot at with, especially out of a pistol, but even a carbine. Obviously a hypothetical...I'll pick neither in real life.

I've shot .223/5.56 out of rifles and 9mm out of pistols and machine pistols against all kinds of materials and the 5.56 almost always punches through. My apocryphal examples are Mini14 at a steel soda syrup canister. Rifle went through both sides. 9mm bounced off .357 went through one side. 1/2 in plywood rifle straight through, 9mm you could dig out of the dirt behind the plywood.

I would like to see something other than a Youtube video as evidence that a 9mm regularly penetrates more than a 5.56mm. :waiting:
The info is out there... just need to google it. I'll try to find some of the articles I have seen when I get home... easier for me to search from PC than it is on my iPad.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#38

Post by popo22 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:17 pm

If you are using good defensive ammo (Jacket hollow points, not solid core bullets) I don't think you'd have too much to worry about with either the 9mm or .223. The shotgun is a man stopped with just about anything short of bird-shot (at distances within most houses), just don't use slugs in your house, they can hit the bad guy and just keep going. I prefer a semi-auto short barrel shotgun assuming that I hit the target, just feed them the right ammo for your situation.


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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#39

Post by flechero » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:51 pm

2 things I haven't seen discussed in the 9 v. 223 debate:

1. misses... I've read a number of well documented articles over the years that suggest that the majority of shots fired in a defensive encounter miss. (inlcluding LEOs) So let's worry about marksmanship and training first because you need to worry WAY MORE about the round headed to the other room with nothing slowing it down than the round that went through a person before hitting walls...

because-

2. if you don't stop the perp immediately, your kids in the next room aren't going to worry about a round that over penetrates or misses- they will need to worry about the perp! So if you don't put him down, you won't be around to defend the wife and kids.

Over penetration is something I worry about when hunting or target shooting, where every shot recreational.

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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#40

Post by aaangel » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:04 pm

Mossy shockwave, been defending my home since 2017.. :lol: Before that 590A1. As for the ammo, first shot #4, followed by 000 and 00 buckshots
'got to Texas ASAIC.

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Jago668
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#41

Post by Jago668 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:54 pm

doncb wrote:Really, all of the talk about putting several pieces of sheetrock together or even a few inches apart doesn't prove much. To be realistic you need to set up like your home. In my case, the next room that someone might be in is 12', a closet door, clothes and two layers of sheetrock away. To be realistic, a test would need to be set up that way. Worried about the room on the other side? Add 10' and another wall.
Something a little closer to what you were wanting.

https://youtu.be/PbdmQ5IN2j0
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Rob72
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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#42

Post by Rob72 » Wed May 02, 2018 8:30 am

Oh, Lordy.

As mentioned, spend time shooting, as much as you can with handguns and long arms.

Without a suppressor or muffs, I would be disinclined to recommend a rifle. If you wonder why, have a "friend" hold a toilet plunger cup in each hand, and clap them over your ears, as hard as they can, and see if you feel that you'll be well-oriented to what's going on around you, immediately afterward. Short version, if you've done it before, you know what you're up to, if you haven't, an urgent situation is not the time to start.

Handguns. 9mm or .45 are probably better choices. Again, without hearing protection, revolvers disperse more gas (and noise), and stepping up to .38+P or .357 mag is pretty harsh.

Some will claim "auditory exclusion" will get you through. BTDT, no it doesn't. An indoors concussion may not make you flinch/miss/whatever, it does stun you and slow your thinking. All the things that make our homes pollen/bug/water resistant keep sound inside very effectively. If you have tile, linoleum, laminate, wood or tile floors, it's rather unpleasant.

Shotguns are good indoors long-arms because their muzzle blast is not as high pressure as a rifle. They are generally less expensive, which is nice if it has to be retained for evidentiary purposes, and are generally more socially acceptable, in addition to being HIGHLY effective using relatively cheap ammo.

If you decide to settle on a rifle caliber, without using a suppressor, one of the linear compensators (Kaw valley, Hera, Levang, or similar) helps a whoooole bunch.

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Re: Home Defense Weapon

#43

Post by Jago668 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:10 am

doncb wrote:Really, all of the talk about putting several pieces of sheetrock together or even a few inches apart doesn't prove much. To be realistic you need to set up like your home. In my case, the next room that someone might be in is 12', a closet door, clothes and two layers of sheetrock away. To be realistic, a test would need to be set up that way. Worried about the room on the other side? Add 10' and another wall.
Not perfect but better than the tests you were talking about.

https://youtu.be/PbdmQ5IN2j0
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