Hevi-Shot Defensive Load?

[TEX]

Hevi-Shot has come out with a load they call “Dead Coyote�. Because the shot is heavier than lead, I can understand that it will penetrate better than lead and certainly better than steel, but just how much more? Supposedly the “T� shot (20 caliber) will go completely through a gooses body at 40 yards. I do not know what this would equate to in ballistic gelatin.

I would think that even normal lead BB size shot would be more lethal than 00 Buck, IF you could get it to penetrate to the same depth as 00 Buck, simply because there would be a great deal more holes (70 vs 9-12). The reality is that smaller shot just won’t penetrate deeply enough and the very reason 00 Buck is used instead.

I can also understand that heavier shot may give a tighter pattern at a given distance over lead, but just how much tighter?

The Dead Coyote comes in 00B (12 pellets of 33 caliber) moving at 1350-fps and “T� Shot (51 pellets of 20 caliber) moving at 1300-fps. Now, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that if the “T� shot would penetrate as deep or nearly as deep as standard lead 00 Buck or 0 Buck, then it would be more effective because it is making about 40 more holes than the Buck, even though the “T shot pellets are 3.3 mms smaller

00B (12 pellets) 33 caliber (8.38mm) @ 1350-fps
T-Shot (51 pellets) 20 caliber (5.08mm) @ 1300-fps

Does anyone know where I might find information on the penetration ability and patterning of this Hevi-Shot load (Dead Coyote). I suspect there is a web site somewhere that may have this info, but dang if I can find it. If the T-shot will take down coyotes at 50+ yards, I am thinking it will penetrate adequately. If so, as a self defense round used on 2 legged goblins, it would be devastating on such out to 15 yards (home defense distances). I am thinking that if it will go through and through on a gooses body at 40 yards, it should probably make a 13-15� deep hole in ballistic gelatin. I base this on pure guess work and have no data to back it up. This is why I am asking for leads and opinions here.

I wish they would make a load in #2 Buck (270 caliber) because I bet the penetration would be adequate and it would have nearly double the pellets of 00 Buck. I would think they could also make a fairly good 20-guage round using #2 Buck.

Please, serious replies only

Thanks - TEX

[Greybeard]

I began limited testing with "Hevi-Shot" several years ago when it was first marketed by Remington. Even popped open a few of the 12 gauge shells to reload in .222/20 gauge combo "varmint gun" before it was available in 20 gauge. That was mostly in 4s when it was packaged in green hulls. They threw some awsomely tight patterns out to around 55 yards of of 12 gauge 870 with modified choke. (Great for late-in-the-season pheasant.)

IIRC, it's been at least a year and a half since the originators of "hevi-shot" and Remington were parting ways (not sure of the status now). The company had semi-recently introduced the "Dead Coyote" load (Ts) and I ordered at least a box of each in both 2 3/4" and 3" 12 gauge. It came package in white semi-transparent hulls. For whatever reason (slightly overlength?) the shells would not cycle reliably in either my 2 3/4" Winchester semi-auto or my 3" 870.

Thus, any further thought of using the high-dollar loads for self defense loads was abandoned. Is that a "serious" enough reply?

[flintknapper]

Good morning Tex,


Interesting information you have provided.

Couple of quick questions:

1. What is the "choke" of the shotgun you intend to use for defensive purposes?

2. What is the maximum distance you expect to engage a threat?



Sorry to answer your question with questions of my own, but its for a purpose.

[HankB]

A similar question came up in another forum . . . here's my response, which I believe is valid for Hevi-shot and lead:

I used to think smaller shot was good, but then I spoke to some African hunters and changed my mind.

African hunting? What does that have to do with home defense?

For years, African hunting lore was that if following up a wounded cat in thick brush, a shotgun loaded with SSG (IIRC, equivalent to #2 or #3 buck) was just the ticket. Unfortunately, it turns out that there was a distinct lack of stopping power and penetration, and some PH's got scratched even after scoring a solid hit. Or two.

Now, it's understandable that this might happen with a lion, which might go as much as 500 lbs . . . but it also happened with leopards, which only average about 160 or so for a mature tom.

Yes, leopards are stronger and quicker than a human . . . but if YOUR target is a 250 lb biker in a leather jacket who spent the last 5 years pumping iron in prison, and he's got a bunch of meth or angel dust up his nose, he may be pretty hard to stop, too.

So now I won't consider anything smaller than 00 buck

[TEX]

flintknapper,

The piece is an 870 Police model with 18" barrel and I am assuming not choked or modified. The expected distance would probably be no greater than 30 yards and more than likely under 15 yards. I think even the 00 Buck Dead Coyote would be better than what I am using now based on the assumption that it will hold a tighter pattern. So far, el cheapo, S&B 00-Buck has given better patterns that any of the fancy expensive stuff. Most stuff will hold a decent pattern, but I am getting a donut out beyond 15 yards and always seem to have at least one pellet that seriously leaves the herd. The T-shot looks promising, but I am afraid that it may just be a tad light. If I could find ballistic tests that showed (any size) Hevi-Shot penetrating 13-15 inches in bal-gel, I would want as many of those in a shell that I could get. I am thinking this might be #3 Hevi-Shot with 20-22 pellets.

TEX

[Greybeard]

Maybe the've got the issue worked out, but my experince with the T's was the white hulls seemed to be a bit longer than "normal" (green Remington hulls) in both 2 3/4" and 3" - like they were really trying to push the envelope with both the payload and the powder. This contributed to some semi-vicious recoil.

The trend in recent years by Law Enforcement circles in our area has been going the other direction: "low recoil" loads (for quicker recovery for possible subsequent shots - and less flinching by certain parties who only shoot once a year ) with 00 buck (such as Federal Tactical and Winchester Ranger).

There have been some pretty good advances in the past decade with shot cup technology and buffering that contributes to tighter patterns. But, unfortunately, about the only thing consistent with shotguns sometimes is inconsistency. What I've found in testing a bunch of 'em over the years, is that it's rare to find a box (of 5) of anybodys where at least one pellet does not occassionaly "leave the herd".

FWIW, with the Hevi-Shot T's and other "premo" brands, the buffering (white packaging granules mixed in with the payload) often has a tendency to vibrate out and clutter up the bottom of the door pocket in F-150s. A drop of Elmer's glue in the middle of the crimp cures the problem - sometimes after the horses are already out of the barn.