Purchased a gun for a friend

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striker55
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Purchased a gun for a friend

#1

Post by striker55 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:08 pm

I purchased a gun for a friend on GunBroker, we both have LTC. When the gun arrives at FFL dealer should I receive the gun then give it to my friend or have my friend fill out the paperwork?

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SQLGeek
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#2

Post by SQLGeek » Thu May 10, 2018 12:11 pm

Did you buy it for him as a gift?
Psalm 91:2


rotor
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#3

Post by rotor » Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm

striker55 wrote:I purchased a gun for a friend on GunBroker, we both have LTC. When the gun arrives at FFL dealer should I receive the gun then give it to my friend or have my friend fill out the paperwork?
Be very careful about how you answer questions here.


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striker55
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#4

Post by striker55 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:20 pm

I purchased it because I had an account and he didn't and the auction was counting down.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#5

Post by Beiruty » Thu May 10, 2018 12:25 pm

striker55 wrote:I purchased it because I had an account and he didn't and the auction was counting down.
Delete this thread. And consult a FFL Friend.
Beiruty,
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#6

Post by Beiruty » Thu May 10, 2018 12:29 pm

First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.
Last edited by Beiruty on Thu May 10, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Beiruty,
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#7

Post by TexasSully » Thu May 10, 2018 12:29 pm

Beiruty wrote:
striker55 wrote:I purchased it because I had an account and he didn't and the auction was counting down.
Delete this thread. And consult a FFL Friend.
:iagree:


big454
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#8

Post by big454 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Wow.
Ignorance is rampant in this part of Texas. I managed to shake it off and I am a firm believer of 2nd Amendment rights

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#9

Post by ScottDLS » Thu May 10, 2018 12:45 pm

Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.

:iagree:

That is the correct way to handle it. The ATF can consider you buying a gun for someone else, even though they are qualified, as a "straw purchase". Realistically, they probably won't, but you should not risk it. When you fill out the 4473 you are signing that you are buying the gun for yourself. ATF considers that lying on the form.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#10

Post by Scott B. » Thu May 10, 2018 1:13 pm

Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.
Do not do this.

You paid for it, you do the transfer. After that, you may gift it to anybody you like in the state of Texas as long as you know they are legally able to own a firearm.

I have an 07/02 FFL/SOT and I do transfers 6 days a week.
LTC / SSC Instructor. NRA - Instructor, CRSO, Life Member.
Sig pistol/rifle & Glock armorer | FFL 07/02 SOT


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#11

Post by SigM4 » Thu May 10, 2018 1:30 pm

Scott B. wrote:
Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.
Do not do this.

You paid for it, you do the transfer. After that, you may gift it to anybody you like in the state of Texas as long as you know they are legally able to own a firearm.

I have an 07/02 FFL/SOT and I do transfers 6 days a week.
Does the ATF care who paid for it, so long as the person that truly is taking possession of it fills out the paperwork (not talking straw purchase here)? I'm asking seriously because I don't know. Seems like we like to attribute a lot of intent and action by the ATF to possible interpretations that we've made up. Would love to hear from an actual rep of the department on situations like this, so that we could all learn.

The reason I ask is it seems that in a case like this logic would dictate that you'd be better off with him filling out the paperwork since he's taking possession of it. Now, that said I know the our benevolent government very rarely operates based on logic and reason, but it seems like all the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth are unnecessary, whether by manufactured caution or by virtue of past interpretation of the law by the ATF.

It'd be no different that me loaning a friend who forgot his wallet the $ to buy a gun. Is that a straw purchase? No, but the way we tell it on the internet an ATF agent is waiting behind every gun counter ready to bust some law abiding citizen.

Sorry, I'm off my soapbox now.

I'd do just as Scott says. For all the worry about buying and transferring for a friend, a gift is still a very simple thing. Convoluted, but that's our government at work.
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.


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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#12

Post by SigM4 » Thu May 10, 2018 1:42 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
That is the correct way to handle it. The ATF can consider you buying a gun for someone else, even though they are qualified, as a "straw purchase". Realistically, they probably won't, but you should not risk it. When you fill out the 4473 you are signing that you are buying the gun for yourself. ATF considers that lying on the form.
Another question on my part (to go along with my post above). Does the ATF consider the payment for the gun and the transfer paperwork all as part and parcel of a single transaction? Or they viewed as separate events?

Reason I ask is because question 11a of the 4473 states "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Waring: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

This is the important part to me ...if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

The reason I quote this is because in this situation, if the friend filled out the paperwork, he would check "Yes" in my mind, because he is the actual transferee regardless who paid for it. And at that point no straw sale would (or could) have existed.

Again, using logic it would seem to me that no matter who pays for the gun, so long as the person actually taking possession of it fills out the form, there's no foul. But, I'm sure it's not that simple.
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#13

Post by ScottDLS » Thu May 10, 2018 1:48 pm

Scott B. wrote:
Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.
Do not do this.

You paid for it, you do the transfer. After that, you may gift it to anybody you like in the state of Texas as long as you know they are legally able to own a firearm.

I have an 07/02 FFL/SOT and I do transfers 6 days a week.
And then ATF can (theoretically) go after him like they did the guy in the SCOTUS case in Virginia where he bought it for his father to get a discount and then transferred it to his father who actually paid for it. Went all the way to SCOTUS and the straw buyer lost. The father was eligible to receive the gun, but because he reimbursed the son, ATF said son lied in the 4473. If you are not actually buying it as a gift, you shouldn't lie on the 4473, even though you'll likely get away with it. It didn't help that the buyer was suspected by the FBI of being a bank robber but they could never prove it....
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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striker55
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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#14

Post by striker55 » Thu May 10, 2018 1:51 pm

I won the auction and paid for the gun. I'll accept it, take possession and next week give my friend and neighbor a nice gift.

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Re: Purchased a gun for a friend

#15

Post by ScottDLS » Thu May 10, 2018 1:53 pm

SigM4 wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
That is the correct way to handle it. The ATF can consider you buying a gun for someone else, even though they are qualified, as a "straw purchase". Realistically, they probably won't, but you should not risk it. When you fill out the 4473 you are signing that you are buying the gun for yourself. ATF considers that lying on the form.
Another question on my part (to go along with my post above). Does the ATF consider the payment for the gun and the transfer paperwork all as part and parcel of a single transaction? Or they viewed as separate events?

Reason I ask is because question 11a of the 4473 states "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Waring: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

This is the important part to me ...if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

The reason I quote this is because in this situation, if the friend filled out the paperwork, he would check "Yes" in my mind, because he is the actual transferee regardless who paid for it. And at that point no straw sale would (or could) have existed.

Again, using logic it would seem to me that no matter who pays for the gun, so long as the person actually taking possession of it fills out the form, there's no foul. But, I'm sure it's not that simple.
You are correct in the case that the actual recipient fills out the 4473. In the case of an online auction described, the seller really doesn't care who the end buyer is, only his FFL. If you buy a gun at auction and the seller sends it to the FFL, then why would they care who fills out the 4473. The FFL just transfers it to the actual buyer, even if it has a not inside that says for John Doe, instead of Sam Smith. The FFL is legal recipient of the first transfer (from seller) and the actual buyer goes and is the (final) transferee. Nobody cares where he got the money.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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