Hello all. New Here - Scenario question

Broge5 · Post by **Broge5** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:34 pm

Hey everybody. I am newly registered, but have been learning from this forum for a couple of months, since a friend invited me to Mr. Cottons talk in Dallas.

I must say I have picked up tons of valuable information. Also, while I never had reason to doubt, I must admit it never occurred to me how conscientious CHL holders are. For instance, before I got my CHL, I had no idea how many others carried, and at first felt a little strange looking around at people and wondering. Because of this forum and those on it, I now look around and hope that others are carrying too.

Here is my question. Please tell me if it belongs somewhere else as I did not find it searching. I know there are countless scenarios and circumstances.

Years ago a friend of mine layed out a scenario of home defense that I'm sure you have all heard. "When awakened at night with what you believe is someone breaking in your home, (No children at the time) get with spouse, weapon and phone, take cover in bedroom behind bed, call 911 with all info - do not hang up, aim at bedroom door and start screaming that I am armed - the police are coming - if you come through this door I will shoot."

This made sense to me. If BG just wanted my stuff, he would probably be on his way with or without it. If BG came through my bedroom door - he must want more than my stuff. In my mind I am not shooting him over stuff, but my life. This was much easier for me to justify the finality of taking a life.

My CHL instructor did not cover this. Something Mr. Cotton said, if I understood correctly, made me question if this is still recommended.

Comments please.

GlockenHammer · Post by **GlockenHammer** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:57 pm

That's pretty much the response I would recommend.

I thought Gregg Garrett had a good way of putting this in his lecture at the forum day on "combat mindset." It went something like this... 9 out of 10 bad guys are going to run away when presented with deadly force because they are looking for victims, not looking for a fight. For the other 1 out of 10 that do not run, they are the ones that will force you to shoot them. It is their choice. You have given it to them when you notify them you are armed and that you will shoot. If they come through the door, they have requested your application of deadly force.

Welcome to the forum.

razoraggie · Post by **razoraggie** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:07 pm

Anyone brazen enough to enter a room after being warned of lethal force is better off with the fate at hand. I have ALWAYS informed my wife of this exact action. Any person in their right mindset will retreat from an area where they are being threatened with life ending consequences. For the other 1% of those people...well...enough said. Keeping the phone audible to 911 dispatch, having verbally warned an intrudor, being it is dark and in your residence....I can't think of a more justified situation.

Good question. Welcome aboard!

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:27 pm

Legally in this situation, it doesn't matter much whether he is coming in after you or after your stuff.

Its dark .. and he is stealing your stuff. Legally you can shoot him.

As of Sept. 1st You can legally use deadly force because you are legally in your house, you reasonably believe he isn't legally there. And he must have used force. because your door was shut. It was shut wasn't it?

flintknapper · Post by **flintknapper** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:47 pm

razoraggie wrote:

Anyone brazen enough to enter a room after being warned of lethal force is better off with the fate at hand. I have ALWAYS informed my wife of this exact action. Any person in their right mindset will retreat from an area where they are being threatened with life ending consequences. For the other 1% of those people...well...enough said. Keeping the phone audible to 911 dispatch, having verbally warned an intrudor, being it is dark and in your residence....I can't think of a more justified situation.

Good question. Welcome aboard!

+1

Basically....this amounts to a "Home Invasion". It takes a criminal with a little different mindset to want to do this.

The average Burglar just wants to steal something of value, do it quickly....and then get out. They don't want you... or anyone else to be there.

Anybody that would enter your home knowing there is a good chance you are there, is a dangerous critter.

Broge5 · Post by **Broge5** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:56 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Another thing that ocurred to me was how he only has one entrace into my room. I know where he is for an easy shot, yet he does not know where to aim at me. Otherwise, if I go looking for him, the exact opposite could be the case.

This all could be tricky however when children are home and where their rooms are relative to mine.

I must have misunderstood Mr. Cotton. Maybe he was saying that the days of my being required to do this to have a justified shoot are gone, and that the new laws allow simply due to forced entry.

jbirds1210 · Post by **jbirds1210** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:57 pm

Broge5-

Welcome to the forum.

You mentioned that:

" Because of this forum and those on it, I now look around and hope that others are carrying too. "

I can't think of a better compliment......that is very kind of you!

IMO your excellent question has already been answered. Thank you for registering and participating. I look forward to learning from your future experiences.

Venus Pax · Post by **Venus Pax** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:50 pm

I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.

ScubaSigGuy · Post by **ScubaSigGuy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:01 pm

Broge5,

Glad that you joined, I had a feeling that you would sooner or later

. I can't say enough about all that I have learned here, and about the great people that I have come in contact with from being a part of the forum.

Soon you'll have to declare a side though... 1911's, or Tupperware and others.

If you haven't decided on a new pistol yet, just let me know if you want try out any of mine. (1911's, tupperware, or otherwise)

I agree with the the advice of your friend. I am not sure what I would do differently if I had a child in another room or a guest satying with us. That's where it gets interesting.

I would probably yell that I was armed and willing to shoot either way. If your child is old enough for you to have covered this scenario with, then they can take cover under the bed or in a closet. If it's a guest and they hear you then they can lock the door and hide or at least be aware that there is a dangerous situation at hand. Of course my plan of action would have a great deal to with the distance from the childs room to mine. In our house the BG's would have to navigate a stairway with zero cover to get most of the bedrooms. They would be the proverbial fish in a barrel.

Edited to actually answer the question.

Post by **Keith B** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:11 pm

Venus Pax wrote:I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.

Venus,

Why wouldn't you tell them you were armed? I am gonna be yelling that so the 911 operator can hear. If you have to follow through with a shooting, you now have another impartial witness and a recording that you were giving THEM the chance to retreat before shooting and not laying an ambush for them.

I know, they were in your house illegally, at night, up to no good, etc., but the more evidence you have it was a righteous shooting, the better.

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:16 pm

Keith B wrote:
Venus Pax wrote:I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.
Venus,

Why wouldn't you tell them you were armed? I am gonna be yelling that so the 911 operator can hear. If you have to follow through with a shooting, you now have another impartial witness and a recording that you were giving THEM the chance to retreat before shooting and not laying an ambush for them.

I know, they were in your house illegally, at night, up to no good, etc., but the more evidence you have it was a righteous shooting, the better.

Ayoob also advises doing this.

Post by **Charles L. Cotton** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:41 pm

Venus Pax wrote:I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.

No reason to advise someone you are armed so they can fire through the door or walls.

Chas.

Post by **Charles L. Cotton** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:42 pm

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Venus Pax wrote:I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.
Venus,

Why wouldn't you tell them you were armed? I am gonna be yelling that so the 911 operator can hear. If you have to follow through with a shooting, you now have another impartial witness and a recording that you were giving THEM the chance to retreat before shooting and not laying an ambush for them.

I know, they were in your house illegally, at night, up to no good, etc., but the more evidence you have it was a righteous shooting, the better.

Ayoob also advises doing this.

Clint Smith strongly advises against this.

Chas.

ScubaSigGuy · Post by **ScubaSigGuy** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:52 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Venus Pax wrote:I wouldn't inform the intruder that I was armed.
Venus,

Why wouldn't you tell them you were armed? I am gonna be yelling that so the 911 operator can hear. If you have to follow through with a shooting, you now have another impartial witness and a recording that you were giving THEM the chance to retreat before shooting and not laying an ambush for them.

I know, they were in your house illegally, at night, up to no good, etc., but the more evidence you have it was a righteous shooting, the better.

Ayoob also advises doing this.
Clint Smith strongly advises against this.

Chas.

Well now I'm confused. Do I trust Clint or Massad?

seamusTX · Post by **seamusTX** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:52 pm

Broge5 wrote:Another thing that ocurred to me was how he only has one entrace into my room. I know where he is for an easy shot, yet he does not know where to aim at me. Otherwise, if I go looking for him, the exact opposite could be the case.

This all could be tricky however when children are home and where their rooms are relative to mine.

You rightly understand that family members in multiple bedrooms make this scenario vastly more complicated.

Broge5 wrote:I must have misunderstood Mr. Cotton. Maybe he was saying that the days of my being required to do this to have a justified shoot are gone, and that the new laws allow simply due to forced entry.

I don't speak for Mr. Cotton, only my own understanding.

You can use deadly force to prevent burglary. That has been the law for many years (I don't know how many).

Penal Code Â§ 30.02. BURGLARY. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person:
(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault;

Forced entry is not required.

It is difficult to prove intent, but it is widely presumed in this state that if someone breaks into a house or apartment, he intends to commit theft or assault.

Discussions of this issue often get mixed up with the legal principles of other states. Some states still have a duty to retreat, or do not allow the use of deadly force to prevent property crimes.

- Jim