Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#46

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:57 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:32 am
Makes sense - agreed it is hard to beat ACOG if money is not a factor. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
You’re certainly welcome. But don’t overlook options like the Primary Arms or Burris fixed or variable magnification optics for ARs as a viable alternative to the Trijicon. They may run on batteries for illumination, but they do have etched reticles with a valid bullet drop compensator regulated for the .223/5.56 cartridge. I have owned both companies’ options now (a fixed 5x powered Burris Prism sight, and a 1-6x PA scope, and I have to say that I prefer the PA reticle. But my ACOG is better than either. It’s notable that Trijicon now offers an ACOG using Primary Arms’ ACSS reticle, so there is something to it, and if I were able to buy the same ACOG today but with the ACSS reticle, I’d choose that one even over the TA31F reticle I currently have.
Image
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:58 pm
Here is my most recent. CAA (Israeli) Micro Roni brace for G19 with Vortex SPARC RDS. of course, if RDS fails can always just pull G19 out I reckon :eek6

Image
I was happy when they brought out the pistol version of that chassis, because I had no desire to permanently convert my Glock pistol into a registered SBR. I guess that now you can get a “folding” Glock 19 that makes it even easier to fold the whole thing up. I am kicking around the idea of a building a 9mm AR pistol that will take Glock magazines. Alternatively, I might build a 9mm upper and add a mag-well adapter for my already registered SBR. I kind of like the idea of a multiple caliber platform on a single lower. BUT ... and this is the main reason I haven’t sprung for the Micro Roni brace ... I don’t see a practical benefit to a long gun / hand gun fusion unless one takes advantage of the ability to have a longer barrel for better ballistics - and the Roni doesn’t provide that. Whether I build or buy, I want at least an 8” barrel, if not longer, AND I want to be able to mount my pistol suppressor on it.

LONG before the ATF or the NFA existed, people who carried a pistol and a rifle in the same caliber didn’t buy rifles with the same barrel length as their pistols, and for a good reason. It wasn’t enough to just get a more stable shooting position, but a longer barrel gave improved terminal ballistics (and range), and a longer sight radius improved accuracy. Hence the development for example of lever action rifles and pistols chambered in .45 Long Colt. Of course there were compromises, like the mounting of a carbine stock onto a Mauser pistol.

So it seems to me that, at any range at which I am likely to deploy a firearm chambered in a pistol caliber which I already carry, it makes more sense to have either an SBR or carbine which takes my pistol’s magazines. I already own a Keltec Sub-2000, but I’m a little frustrated with a couple of its “features” like unacceptable accuracy. I can actually shoot my G17 more accurately than I can the Sub-2K with the G17 magazines in it, and that’s just ridiculous. So the only benefit it has is greater velocity, but that velocity is meaningless if it doesn’t hit where you want it to. If I regulary carried my .357 revolver, I’d just go get myself a .357 lever action and be done with it. Likewise my .44 magnum revolver (which I never carry). I made the decision for a number of reasons a while back to carry 9mm Glock pistols. So, a long gun chambered in 9mm that accepts my Glock mags is what I’ve settled on, and my principle inner debate is over whether to buy/build a dedicated 9mm AR pistol that takes Glock mags, or to buy/build a 9mm upper + mag-well adapter to fit my existing SBR.
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I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#47

Post by Bitter Clinger » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:33 pm

TAM,

When I travel I by truck I carry my G19 Gen4 concealed strong side hip. By having the Roni and the RDS (and some 33 round mags), I can increase the effective distance over which I am accurate with the pistol (say from 25 out to 50 yards). I completely acknowledge the correctness of your statement with regard to barrel length, but with the Roni, when I exit the vehicle for the evening somewhere that I have not been before, I don't have to bring the long gun into the hotel with me and if it does get stolen, the thief does not get a gun, only an expensive, relatively light weight piece of non-functioning plastic. Hence my primary reasoning. YMMV.

BC

P.S. I have a SIG MPX with an 8" Bbl in 9mm that I have SBR'd and which is an absolute joy to shoot out to 100 yds+, but its heavier to lug around and way too expensive to leave overnight in the truck, even locked up.
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#48

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:54 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:33 pm
TAM,

When I travel I by truck I carry my G19 Gen4 concealed strong side hip. By having the Roni and the RDS (and some 33 round mags), I can increase the effective distance over which I am accurate with the pistol (say from 25 out to 50 yards). I completely acknowledge the correctness of your statement with regard to barrel length, but with the Roni, when I exit the vehicle for the evening somewhere that I have not been before, I don't have to bring the long gun into the hotel with me and if it does get stolen, the thief does not get a gun, only an expensive, relatively light weight piece of non-functioning plastic. Hence my primary reasoning. YMMV.

BC

P.S. I have a SIG MPX with an 8" Bbl in 9mm that I have SBR'd and which is an absolute joy to shoot out to 100 yds+, but its heavier to lug around and way too expensive to leave overnight in the truck, even locked up.
Well, the theft reason is a valid one I had not considered. I’ve “window-shopped” both the MPX and the CZ S1 Scorpion, and right now, both are a little too rich for my pocket book. But also, neither takes my Glock magazines, and I’m really trying to unify the platforms as much as possible.

What to do, what to do... :lol:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#49

Post by Bitter Clinger » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:36 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:54 am
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:33 pm
TAM,

When I travel I by truck I carry my G19 Gen4 concealed strong side hip. By having the Roni and the RDS (and some 33 round mags), I can increase the effective distance over which I am accurate with the pistol (say from 25 out to 50 yards). I completely acknowledge the correctness of your statement with regard to barrel length, but with the Roni, when I exit the vehicle for the evening somewhere that I have not been before, I don't have to bring the long gun into the hotel with me and if it does get stolen, the thief does not get a gun, only an expensive, relatively light weight piece of non-functioning plastic. Hence my primary reasoning. YMMV.

BC

P.S. I have a SIG MPX with an 8" Bbl in 9mm that I have SBR'd and which is an absolute joy to shoot out to 100 yds+, but its heavier to lug around and way too expensive to leave overnight in the truck, even locked up.
Well, the theft reason is a valid one I had not considered. I’ve “window-shopped” both the MPX and the CZ S1 Scorpion, and right now, both are a little too rich for my pocket book. But also, neither takes my Glock magazines, and I’m really trying to unify the platforms as much as possible.

What to do, what to do... :lol:
Yeah, the magazine thing doesn't really concern me. I would prefer .300 BO or even 5.56 over the 9 mm, as in the time it takes a 9mm to reach a 100 yard target you can pretty much light up a cigarette and pour yourself a mixed drink :biggrinjester:
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"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." - Wyatt Earp
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#50

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:36 pm
Yeah, the magazine thing doesn't really concern me. I would prefer .300 BO or even 5.56 over the 9 mm, as in the time it takes a 9mm to reach a 100 yard target you can pretty much light up a cigarette and pour yourself a mixed drink :biggrinjester:
I just saw a youtube video today by IraqVeteran8888 from several years ago, wherein he tests 9mm for "lethality" 7 yards to 440 yards. They shoot the closer targets with a CZ pistol. For the further targets, he uses a Keltec Sub-2000. They run the test with 124 grain FMJ, and 124 grain Federal HST, using both 3/4" plywood backed by 2x4s, and ballistic gelatin targets.

Surprisingly, the FMJ still had enough velocity/energy to punch through both the plywood and the 2x4 at 440 yards, and the HST had enough velocity/energy to expand in the ballistic gel at 440 yards...just not quite as dramatically as it did at close range.

Video Part 1:


Video Part 2:


Sure enough, the round takes a while to get down there at 440 yards, and it also calls into question whether or not you'd need to actually shoot someone at that distance. That's "escape and evasion" distance in my book. Still, it was nice to know that the cartridge is generally more capable than even I was willing to concede. I hear you on the .300 Blk, and already have a SBR in that chambering ... but again, it doesn't address the Glock magazine issue. I'm thinking in "get home" terms (as I'm sure you are too with that Mini Roni), more than I am interested in engaging in a long range shootout. I suppose I could just keep my SCAR 17 in the car. LOL
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#51

Post by Maxwell » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:56 pm

TAM,

I hate to admit it but I had to look up ACOG...
Image

:biggrinjester:

p.s., There are so many bad puns and double-entendres Charles would kick me off of the forum... :reddevil
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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#52

Post by Maxwell » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:06 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:24 pm
I just saw a youtube video today by IraqVeteran8888 from several years ago, wherein he tests 9mm for "lethality" 7 yards to 440 yards. They shoot the closer targets with a CZ pistol. For the further targets, he uses a Keltec Sub-2000. They run the test with 124 grain FMJ, and 124 grain Federal HST, using both 3/4" plywood backed by 2x4s, and ballistic gelatin targets.

Surprisingly, the FMJ still had enough velocity/energy to punch through both the plywood and the 2x4 at 440 yards, and the HST had enough velocity/energy to expand in the ballistic gel at 440 yards...just not quite as dramatically as it did at close range.

And this is why rule #4 is so important: Identify your target, and what is behind it!
I never let schooling interfere with my education. Mark Twain

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#53

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Maxwell wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:56 pm
TAM,

I hate to admit it but I had to look up ACOG...
Image

:biggrinjester:

p.s., There are so many bad puns and double-entendres Charles would kick me off of the forum... :reddevil
LOLZ. I've honestly never bothered to look up any other definition. I've just always known it to mean "Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight".
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy

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Re: Red Dot VS. Scope - choice for AR-15

#54

Post by Bitter Clinger » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:18 pm

Took the Micro Roni out for a range test. Mixed results:

At 25 yards had a very nice small fist sized group, so pistol precision increased as expected with the more stable platform. Had to be mindful of the offset of the RDS optic vs. the G19 bbl or would affect location of grouping at 25 yards (did not see that accuracy vs. precision issue at closer distances). Roni appears to grip pistol primarily at front of frame, so that malfunctions seemed to increase vs. classic two handed semiauto pistol grip, especially with longer (33 round Glock factory mags) - so advantage of larger capacity mags in question. Shot factory new 124 grain NATO and 124 grain +P JHP, no felt recoil to speak of. Front of pistol slide came out of Roni quite dirty, luckily its a Glock so will not require any cleaning :lol: . All in all it seems a reasonable compromise in that pistol precision improved but definitely not equivalent to a true pistol caliber carbine.
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