NRA and Red Flag Laws

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chasfm11
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NRA and Red Flag Laws

#1

Post by chasfm11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:31 pm

I did not want to mix this aspect in with the Lindsey Graham thread. If a moderator feels differently, please feel free to close this and I'll repost on that thread.

This started with a post on Facebook saying that the NRA was supporting red flag laws. I don't believe it, especially the current version of those laws. I was sent to a link with a Chris Cox video showing but it said that the video wasn't available. My spidey senses went up immediately. I was sent to this National Review article
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/n ... BaeQEpW81I

On one level, I could support some of the ideas. What I can't see is a way to stop those ideas from being perverted and believe that leadership in the NRA is smarter about that than I am. With the President potentially waffling on red flag laws, I sincerely hope that the NRA isn't following suit.

My main counterargument is that several strong Lefty websites - Salon, Everytown, etc. are broadcasting the NRA capitulation. That, by itself, is enough to make me doubt that there is any truth in the story. I believe that is wishful thinking on their parts. As usual, there isn't a single source anywhere from the NRA that talks about such an acceptance. I can see absolutely no upside for the NRA on this subject at this time if they do embrace any red flag legislation, let alone what appears to be the current approach.

Does anyone have anything more?
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#2

Post by carlson1 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:37 pm

I see it as a list of liberty without any justification. Mary gets mad and Joe. Calls the LE and tells them Joe is acting funny and has guns! Police show up and Joe’s and confiscates everything for a hearing later.

We all know how hard is to get property back from LE that was just stolen much less a firearm.

I see a lot of area that will be abused.
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#3

Post by Grayling813 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:48 pm

carlson1 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:37 pm
I see it as a list of liberty without any justification. Mary gets mad and Joe. Calls the LE and tells them Joe is acting funny and has guns! Police show up and Joe’s and confiscates everything for a hearing later.

We all know how hard is to get property back from LE that was just stolen much less a firearm.

I see a lot of area that will be abused.
Or...police swat team conducts a 2am no knock raid...Joe defends himself not knowing the intruders are the police....Joe dies...everyone says "See, Joe was crazy he started shooting at the police."
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#4

Post by chasfm11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:50 pm

I don't like the red flag law concept either. But let's keep this thread about NRA support or not for those laws.
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#5

Post by ScottDLS » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:03 pm

I also would like to know if the NRA supports the "Red Flag" laws. I know there will be immense pressure including from some Republicans to support them. There will be the calls to support them to head off worse laws like a renewed "assault weapon" ban or registration or federal regulations on private transfers (aka "universal background checks"). It will be like the bump stock regulations (ban). Awwww...who cares about bump stocks, it's dumb plastic toy...which is why of course we needed to make it a federal (felony) offense to have one.

So let's hear from the politicians (and the NRA if they come out for it) why "Red Flag Laws" are a good idea. Arguably almost all Federal gun regulation is unconstitutional. Sure that ship has sailed, but that doesn't mean it isn't. Why was the 1934 NFA structured as a tax? Because Roosevelt knew he would lose in the SCOTUS an outright ban. Handguns were intended to be included, but kept out because it might have killed the whole thing legislatively or constitutionally. The 1968 GCA was all about "interstate commerce" in firearms, Interstate commerce is the magic talisman that gives the Federal government jurisdiction over everything, enumerated powers notwithstanding. It isn't and it's clearly unconstitutional, but the Men (and women) in Black have spoken. The 1991 GFSZA actually failed Constitutional muster until it reappeared later (1996) with the magic talisman. The violence against women act (1996?) retroactively made convicted ("domestic assault") misdemeanants ineligible to own a firearm for life. If a state crime is serious enough to be a lifetime bar, one should think the states should choose to make it a felony, or perhaps a statewide bar to ownership. But the all knowing central government knows better, right? Why do you want wife beaters to have guns, Scott?

Red Flag laws? SO how does it work. Congress passes the (unconstitutional) legislation and sends it to the administrative state for execution. We'll need an agency (maybe ATF) to execute. So my neighbor, who throws his grass clippings in my yard is a crazy right wing gun nut who scares me. He posts on these Alt-Right forums like TexasCHLForum. I know he has lots of guns because I've seen him "waving them around" in his yard. Sometimes he mows his yard with a pistol (because he knows I might confront him about the clippings). I go down to the ATF an file a complaint, backed by an affidavit. ATF pre-emptively seizes all his guns (especially NFA items they know he has). HIs wife owns some too, but they take those because he has "access" to them. Neighbor is scheduled for a hearing before an Administrative law judge in 6 months, where he can argue to get his guns back. If he's successful...well sorry the ATF "lost" all his guns and accidentally destroyed the NFA collection.

So NO. No red flag laws.
NO registration.
NO "regulation" of private intrastate sales.
NO age limit increases.
NO magazine or accessory restictions.
NO semi-auto center fire restrictions.

The time for compromising is over. The new argument should be for repealing existing unconstitutional restrictions. I don't have time to make the detailed arguments in this post, but they exist and the NRA and other civil rights organizations should begin to make them

No compromising....just this one little thing to avoid even worse down the road. NO! :mad5
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#6

Post by Syntyr » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:25 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:03 pm

So NO. No red flag laws.
NO registration.
NO "regulation" of private intrastate sales.
NO age limit increases.
NO magazine or accessory restictions.
NO semi-auto center fire restrictions.

The time for compromising is over. The new argument should be for repealing existing unconstitutional restrictions. I don't have time to make the detailed arguments in this post, but they exist and the NRA and other civil rights organizations should begin to make them

No compromising....just this one little thing to avoid even worse down the road. NO! :mad5

Hello NRA... :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :

And yes I have called and voiced my opinion!
Syntyr
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"Inconceivable!" - Fizzinni


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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#7

Post by LTUME1978 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:39 pm

My concern is what the red flag laws will morf into. Example, as Christians become a smaller part of the population, someone on the left could claim that they are causing problems/have anger problems because they preach what the Bible says. The Left could call for all guns to be confiscated from anyone that is a member of a Christian church. I could see that easily happening in the not to distant future if the left got in control of Federal Government. Lots of other variation on this theme with the left in control.

We need to just say no to any form of red flag law. If that does not work, option 2 will be more noisy and action packed.

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#8

Post by thatguyoverthere » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:46 pm

The NRA did support red flag laws as of about a year or so ago, if even that long ago - I don't know the date. There was a video of Chris Cox, speaking for the NRA, urging support for getting them passed. I did see that video on the NRA site at that time.

I could not find a link to that video in a very quick web search today, but I did find a brief clip of the Chris Cox video embedded in this other video on You Tube. The very brief Chris Cox clip can be seen starting at about the 6:30 mark in the video at this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6bzaXdKwaY

I can't specify the particulars of the NRA support for these laws at that time, nor if or how they support them now. All I know is that they did support red flag laws at one time.

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#9

Post by G.A. Heath » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:57 pm

If we have no chance of stopping red flag laws then I say we play their game and actually compromise along the lines of:
  • You can have your red flag laws
  • You can even require registration of new machine guns :biggrinjester: along with a universal instant NICS background check on said machine guns, we'll even agree to put the money in the budget so that can be done.
In return I want:
  • Federal felony for falsely reporting someone under any red flag laws.
  • A person that is subject to a restraining or protective order must meet a higher standard to report someone the court considers them a potential threat against.
  • Clear and Convincing Evidentiary standard at a minimum.
  • a strict limit on the number of times a single party may report a specific person over a specific period of time and a slightly greater limit on how many times they can report people in general over a specific time frame.
  • Appraisal by a qualified third party (On the government's dime) of the firearm's value w/ interest paid for the time held by the government. Full payment for firearms permanently seized, along with the previous interest. The government and accused can sue someone who falsely reported a party under the red flag law for damages and civil rights violations.
If they reject this then they are obviously in the pocket of the machine gun manufacturers and want people to die!

Edited to fix type and to clarify what I wanted an instant universal background check on
Last edited by G.A. Heath on Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#10

Post by thatguyoverthere » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:01 pm

Then there's this. The NRA apparently does support red flag laws at the state level, as long as they meet the conditions of what NRA considers fair "due process."
As states consider ERPO laws, the NRA will continue to push for the inclusion of strong due process protections.
Notice it doesn't say the NRA will fight against them - but rather, just try to make sure they are to their liking.

This from the NRA-ILA web site just now, at this link:
https://www.nraila.org/get-the-facts/em ... ers-erpos/

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#11

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:06 pm

G.A. Heath wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:57 pm
If we have no chance of stopping red flag laws then I saw we play their game and actually compromise along the lines of:
  • You can have your red flag laws
  • You can even require registration of new machine guns :biggrinjester: along with a universal instant NICS background check, we'll even agree to put the money in the budget so that can be done.
In return I want:
  • Federal felony for falsely reporting someone under any red flag laws.
  • A person that is subject to a restraining or protective order must meet a higher standard to report someone the court considers them a potential threat against.
  • Clear and Convincing Evidentiary standard at a minimum.
  • a strict limit on the number of times a single party may report a specific person over a specific period of time and a slightly greater limit on how many times they can report people in general over a specific time frame.
  • Appraisal by a qualified third party (On the government's dime) of the firearm's value w/ interest paid for the time held by the government. Full payment for firearms permanently seized, along with the previous interest. The government and accused can sue someone who falsely reported a party under the red flag law for damages and civil rights violations.
If they reject this then they are obviously in the pocket of the machine gun manufacturers and want people to die!
I am unapologetically stealing this and ScottDLS's post for use on Twitter. Sue me. :mrgreen:
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#12

Post by Oldgringo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:19 pm

Red Flag laws could be much like sexual harassment allegations: guilty until proven innocent! :mad5

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#13

Post by G.A. Heath » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:31 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:06 pm
I am unapologetically stealing this and ScottDLS's post for use on Twitter. Sue me. :mrgreen:
I'll enjoy seeing it weaponized properly, but please use my corrected version as a basis to clarify the universal background checks are only for MGs.
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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#14

Post by chasfm11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:41 pm

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Re: NRA and Red Flag Laws

#15

Post by mayor » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:19 pm

The NRA should only support red flag laws is by voter ID requirements attached to them. And the only way to get a certified voter ID is to provide a birth certificate.

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