Ammunition Damage

[Supercat]

Here is my question: How do I minimize the bullet being pushed back into the casing of a round?

I'll expand with an explanation: I clean and or wipe down my carry weapon almost daily (remove sweat and such). After the cleaning and reloading (scraping a round off the top of the mag) I notice the bullet is shorter. After a few cycles of this I notice that the bullet is being pushed further into the bullet caseing from striking the ramp on the way in (2 cycles and this is visible). I have been told that dropping a round into the chamber then dropping the slide will damage the extractor (is this true or urban myth).

Any words of advise would be appriciated, If model matters were talking 1911 full size w/internal extractor.

I have 3 1911's (STI, Para, Colt) that have this same issue.

[The Marshal]

Supercat,

With my Federal Hydrashoks, I have not experienced that problem.
From either of my Kimbers.

Now, when I used Blazer Brass (turns, spits), I have that issue most every time. I won't fire that ammo in my gun if I see it. I give it to Rey.

~Bill

[htxred]

i have owned para ord full size, slim hawg, kimber pro carry, 2 dan wesson CBOBs (.45 and 10mm)..

all of them, i drop a round in the chamber and release the slide then load the mag.

all extractors are fine. para ord got power extractors that "look" a lot sturdier then wilson combats bullet proof extractors. but either way, i've never had a problem with it and a lot of other older, wiser, 1911 owners i speak to all load up the same way. they actually laugh at the people who insert mag, rack, release mag and put another round in...

not passing judgment but i havent seen any damage to my extractors.

[txinvestigator]

It CAN damage an extractor, but just as importantly, the extractor can fail to engage the lip of the round when done that way. If that happens you get one shot, then an FTE.

The proper way to top of a mag is to insert the magazine, chamber a round, then remove the mag and top it off.



***Warning*** A bullet pushed back too far in the case can result in unsafe pressures when you fire the weapon***

[txinvestigator]

. they actually laugh at the people who insert mag, rack, release mag and put another round in...

not passing judgment but i havent seen any damage to my extractors.

Really? Well the professionals I have trained with will chastise you for amateur and sloppy loading when you drop a round in the chamber.

I am talking about people like Glen Boodry, who is an operational member of the U.S. Department of States Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program and is responsible for the anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism training of foreign law enforcement and military special operations groups.

Boodry is a former member of Naval Special Warfare Group One SBU, Naval Security Group and Commander U.S. Naval Forces Central
Command during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Desert Shield.

Boodry is a former Special Operations Team Leader and Sniper Team
Leader and has conducted special operations missions around
the world.

Boodry is a full time law enforcement trainer and has instructed over 300
federal, state and local law enforcement agencies in the most current
tactics and techniques associated with law enforcement special operations and patrol techniques.

And people like Max Joseph, founder and training director of both TFTT and the Direct Action Group. Max has been involved in Special Operations and training non-stop for the last 21 years. He has trained and worked with Counter-Terrorist officers and troops from Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and South America. In addition to running TFTT/Direct Action Group full time, Max also proudly served as the Senior Instructor for the Tactical Explosive Entry School from 1993-2005 both in the United States and Brazil. He is recognized as a subject matter expert in explosives for Tactical Breaching and other Special Operations. He also has extensive experience in Executive Protection and has worked details in Central America, South America, Eastern Europe and Afghanistan. He is currently still operational in several capacities both in and out of CONUS.

Shawn Lewis, Adjunct Instructor for the Department of State Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program, training many foreign governments police and military on counter terrorism, and specializing in explosive breaching, dignitary protection, and small arms training.

These are the guys out doing it, not sitting around a gun range telling fairy tales.

I was going to just post the reasons to not load directly into the chamber, but when comments are made about "older, wiser 1911 shooters" laughing at people who DO IT RIGHT, I just have to respond.

[ELB]

From personal experience, you can add John Farnam ( http://defense-training.com ) to the list of top-notch instructors who counsel AGAINST dropping a round in the chamber and then releasing the slide. I would trust John over anyone I met on the range.

And the solution to avoiding bullet push back is probably to buy better ammo, or use a tighter crimp if you are reloading your own. All the reloading manuals/literature I have read warn against the pressure changes that can occur when changing the seating depth of a bullet. Can't imagine it is any different for store-bought ammo.

Best wishes.

elb

[htxred]

well i know bobby lee swagger and jason bourne, both said its ok.

i never knew extractors were so poorly made..

[jbirds1210]

I completely agree that dropping in a round and closing the slide is a very bad practice. It will destroy your extractor at best.

[Supercat]

And the solution to avoiding bullet push back is probably to buy better ammo

elb

I have had this issue with Federal Hydrashocks, Hollow point ammo bought at a gunshow, and Winchester white box range ammo. Blazer Brass range ammo not so much.
I would think it is not the firearms as there are a number of versions I am using.
One thought I did have is the mag. The wilson combat mags I have lots of, hold the top round at a much lower angle than say factory Colt 8rnd mags. Maybe that lower angle is causing the round to impact the ramp harder than normal.

[stevie_d_64]

Uh ohhhhh...

[AFJailor]

Well i just asked one of our Combat Arms trainers at our range and they agree that it can cause extractor damage, that and looking at my Sigg p220 manual it says doing so can cause an accidental discharge. So basically it sounds liek a pretty bad idea :)

[mr surveyor]

bullet setback can be extremely dangerous, so I have heard, as it will result in some serious over pressure. I'm sure there are reloaders here than can explain what happens internally inside the round. A few moinths ago there was a story floating around about a security guard (I think) that cleared his weapon every night, replaced the same round on the top of the mag, and reloaded every morning for his shift. At one of his very infrequent trips to the range he had a "K-Boom" that was traced to the bullet setback. If I can find the link to the article I'll post it. The guns that I might clear occassionally, I make sure the round that gets chambered does not get many cycles before going down range and becomming a non-issue.

[Thane]

Also, only some 1911's have a firing-pin safety - and for those that don't (which I imagine is most of them), there's nothing stopping the firing-pin from slamming forward when the slide closes at full velocity, potentially setting off the primer and thence the chambered round itself.

People who laugh obviously haven't been around as much as those who don't laugh. He who laughs last, etc, etc.

I have never heard of this happening. From what I know of the 1911's mechanism, if this were true, then the firing pin would slam forward on the primer of -every- chambered round, not just the first one, effectively "machine-gunning" the pistol. Remember, when you're firing, that slide is cycling rather fast, and the momentum wouldn't be transferred to the firing pin, allowing it to "slam forward," until the slide was fully closed. If the pin could do this, it would set off EVERY round chambered, not just those manually placed in the chamber.

Actually, 1911s have a spring around the firing pin, keeping it at the rearward position until the hammer is dropped, to prevent such an event. The firing pin safety has nothing to do with it; rather, it's there (if it's there) to prevent an accidental discharge if you drop the gun on a decocked hammer with a round in the chamber. The spring not only keeps the firing pin away from the primer, but it, the pin, and a third piece (I forget the part's name) act together to hold the extractor in place. A quick glance at my Springfield's slide confirms this.

I've heard of the "don't drop the slide on an already-loaded chamber 'cause it'll break your extractor" thing before. I've never seen any damage incurred by it, but that doesn't mean that extractors haven't been/can't be damaged through this practice (and it's not something I advocate or encourage others to do). I'd think a breakage like this would be more likely with steel-cased ammunition than brass, though.

In short, dropping the slide on a chambered round will NOT fire the weapon unless it's missing that spring, although it COULD damage your extractor. Do it, and you run the risk of needing a repair, but barring mechanical failure or user error, you won't put a hole in something.