New CHL Target

[Tom]

I created this awhile back to help illustrate to a friend the test and differences between 2005 and 2006. Enjoy. :)

http://www.woodfam.com/forums/CHL_Proficiency_Test.pdf

Ryan

Looks good, thanks.

But, where did the "low ready" requirement come from?
I just checked the DPS site and they are silent on that issue.
Our instructor had us pointing at the target when the timer started.

Regards,

Tom

Most instructors have students start from low ready. It is not a requirement.

OK, thanks. That is good to know if I need to change instructors.
Just another question to ask before taking their course.

Regards,

Tom

You would base a decision on whether to take a course or not depending on from what position the instructor has you begin shooting?

Umm, Yup. But I doubt it will come to that. Out here the current
instructor comes to our homes and does personal sessions. He follows
the law as written, and doesn't add time handicaps. We also have an
approved/registered private range nearby so it is all very convenient.

So why would you believe that I should take a course from someone who
did, based upon his/her personal opinion, force me to begin from
any particular position? Shouldn't it be up to the student, since DPS
appears to not mandate one over another?

You appear to have a strong opinion on this or you would not have
worded your query the way you did. It hints of a bit of indignation.
Perhaps you didn't mean for that to be the case, but there it is.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Kind Regards,

Tom

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Just another question to ask before taking their course."

That might be why certain instructors make everyone go read a specific web site before they sign up. :)

[txinvestigator]

I created this awhile back to help illustrate to a friend the test and differences between 2005 and 2006. Enjoy. :)

http://www.woodfam.com/forums/CHL_Proficiency_Test.pdf

Ryan

Looks good, thanks.

But, where did the "low ready" requirement come from?
I just checked the DPS site and they are silent on that issue.
Our instructor had us pointing at the target when the timer started.

Regards,

Tom

Most instructors have students start from low ready. It is not a requirement.

OK, thanks. That is good to know if I need to change instructors.
Just another question to ask before taking their course.

Regards,

Tom

You would base a decision on whether to take a course or not depending on from what position the instructor has you begin shooting?

Umm, Yup. But I doubt it will come to that. Out here the current
instructor comes to our homes and does personal sessions. He follows
the law as written, and doesn't add time handicaps. We also have an
approved/registered private range nearby so it is all very convenient.

So why would you believe that I should take a course from someone who
did, based upon his/her personal opinion, force me to begin from
any particular position? Shouldn't it be up to the student, since DPS
appears to not mandate one over another?

You appear to have a strong opinion on this or you would not have
worded your query the way you did. It hints of a bit of indignation.
Perhaps you didn't mean for that to be the case, but there it is.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Kind Regards,

Tom

What do you mean by "time handicapps?" If you are referring to the time limits for each course of fire, that IS mandated by DPS. http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=14

And my question regarding the starting position was just a question. I have never considered not taking a course based on such factors, so it was a little surprising to read that.

Just to offer some insight to my thinking.....I have students start each string from low ready. Once the first shot is fired they can stay on target or go back to low ready as the desire. However, depending on the class, sometimes I will have to help a student after giving the command to prepare. If you are standing at the "on target" position, you will get worn out quickly waiting for me.

The low ready is a much more comfortable and less tiring position for even short waits. ;)

I also believe I have an obligation to train the student in as realistic methods as possible given the course objectives and requirements. It is most likely a citizen will have to actually draw from concealment and fire. I think firing first shot from the "on target" is a much too unrealistic method.

But thats why there are different instructors.

[Tom]

You would base a decision on whether to take a course or not depending on from what position the instructor has you begin shooting?

Umm, Yup. But I doubt it will come to that. Out here the current
instructor comes to our homes and does personal sessions. He follows
the law as written, and doesn't add time handicaps. We also have an
approved/registered private range nearby so it is all very convenient.

So why would you believe that I should take a course from someone who
did, based upon his/her personal opinion, force me to begin from
any particular position? Shouldn't it be up to the student, since DPS
appears to not mandate one over another?

You appear to have a strong opinion on this or you would not have
worded your query the way you did. It hints of a bit of indignation.
Perhaps you didn't mean for that to be the case, but there it is.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Kind Regards,

Tom

What do you mean by "time handicapps?" If you are referring to the time limits for each course of fire, that IS mandated by DPS. http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=14

I thought it was obvious that I was describing the "handicap" of the time
needed for the first shot from low ready.

And my question regarding the starting position was just a question. I have never considered not taking a course based on such factors, so it was a little surprising to read that.

Well, that is you. I don't agree with imposing "requirements" that would
not otherwise exist.

Just to offer some insight to my thinking.....I have students start each string from low ready. Once the first shot is fired they can stay on target or go back to low ready as the desire. However, depending on the class, sometimes I will have to help a student after giving the command to prepare. If you are standing at the "on target" position, you will get worn out quickly waiting for me.

The low ready is a much more comfortable and less tiring position for even short waits. ;)

Worn out waiting? Get everyone ready first, then have them get "on target".

I also believe I have an obligation to train the student in as realistic methods as possible given the course objectives and requirements. It is most likely a citizen will have to actually draw from concealment and fire. I think firing first shot from the "on target" is a much too unrealistic method.

Instruction is good. And I have seen first time shooters have lots of
difficulty getting started. But if you intend to make it more realistic why
not have everyone draw from concealment? What realism does a low
ready position add?

But thats why there are different instructors.

Indeed. And we make our choices based upon knowing what is expected
vs. what is required.

Thanks for your insights. I hope to meet with you some day. I nearly
made the last PSC shoot but last minute events stopped me. I will try
to plan better for the next. We SIG guys need to make our presence
known.

Kind Regards,

Tom

[stevie_d_64]

Finally got some time at home to print out that .pdf file...

Thats some good info...Good comparison between the old and new target...

Thanks...

[AggieMM]

Finally got some time at home to print out that .pdf file...

Thats some good info...Good comparison between the old and new target...

Thanks...

Good, glad it worked for you. :)

Ryan

[txinvestigator]

What do you mean by "time handicapps?" If you are referring to the time limits for each course of fire, that IS mandated by DPS. http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=14

I thought it was obvious that I was describing the "handicap" of the time
needed for the first shot from low ready.

I tought you were referring to the course time limits. I see your point, but I don't see the fraction of a second difference a handicap. Again not trying to argue, just stating my POV.

And my question regarding the starting position was just a question. I have never considered not taking a course based on such factors, so it was a little surprising to read that.

Well, that is you. I don't agree with imposing "requirements" that would not otherwise exist.

I know that is me. You asked me to explain myself and I did. As a student, I enjoy the differences in instructors. It makes one a better shooter and trains to respond to varied situations. You don't. As my daughter says, "its all good". ;)

Just to offer some insight to my thinking.....I have students start each string from low ready. Once the first shot is fired they can stay on target or go back to low ready as the desire. However, depending on the class, sometimes I will have to help a student after giving the command to prepare. If you are standing at the "on target" position, you will get worn out quickly waiting for me.

The low ready is a much more comfortable and less tiring position for even short waits. ;)

Worn out waiting? Get everyone ready first, then have them get "on target".

That would work.

I also believe I have an obligation to train the student in as realistic methods as possible given the course objectives and requirements. It is most likely a citizen will have to actually draw from concealment and fire. I think firing first shot from the "on target" is a much too unrealistic method.

Instruction is good. And I have seen first time shooters have lots of difficulty getting started. But if you intend to make it more realistic why
not have everyone draw from concealment? What realism does a low
ready position add?

First time shooters do have problems often getting started, agreed. We are fortunate that we have a range right here. When I have a student who has not fired before we get them some special instruction over lunch to try to get them up to speed. In fact, when we sign people up we always inquire as to their experience level. If they have none, we try yo get to to take our 2 hour intro to handguns class first. It really helps them get up to speed.

But thats why there are different instructors.

Indeed. And we make our choices based upon knowing what is expectedvs. what is required.

Fair enough.

Thanks for your insights. I hope to meet with you some day. I nearly
made the last PSC shoot but last minute events stopped me. I will try
to plan better for the next. We SIG guys need to make our presence
known.

Kind Regards,


Tom

I look forward to meeting you too. But to be fair, I am a KIMBER guy.

[Tom]

Thanks for your insights. I hope to meet with you some day. I nearly
made the last PSC shoot but last minute events stopped me. I will try
to plan better for the next. We SIG guys need to make our presence
known.
Kind Regards,
Tom

I look forward to meeting you too. But to be fair, I am a KIMBER guy.

Yeah, I knew that. But it has become increasingly obvious that we SIG
guys have taken a back seat for too long to the 1911'ers and Glock'sters.
We need to "come out of the closet", umm, so to speak.

Oh, and I did actually try the new targets. I got 25 of each of the four
colors. In bright sunlight black is still the best. In fact the darker colors
were much easier to both shoot and see hits than the lighter ones.
But as with most things in life, choice is good.

Kind Regards,

Tom

[Crossfire]

I think you guys are getting a little too hung up on this. The fact is, as an instructor, I don't care whether you shoot from low ready, on target, draw from concealment, or standing on your head. All I care is that you SAFELY shoot the course of fire from the required distances and in the time allowed.
My thought is the DPS did not design the course of fire to actually test your shooting abilities. The test is far too easy for that. They only want you to demonstrate that you can follow instructions and safely operate your firearm.

I have taught new shooters, experienced shooters, handicapped shooters, and I have never had anyone fail the shooting test. They haven't all passed the first time, but they all somehow passed before the 3rd time. And when it's all done - that's all that matters.

Of course, these are my own personal opinions. Your mileage may vary.

[KBCraig]

My thought is the DPS did not design the course of fire to actually test your shooting abilities. The test is far too easy for that. They only want you to demonstrate that you can follow instructions and safely operate your firearm.

I think you're exactly right. The shooting portion is the instructor's opportunity to say, "This person really has no business with a firearm without serious remedial instruction!"

While I believe all licensing requirements are an offense to the 2nd Amendment, I have to agree with this much: if someone can't pass the CHL course of fire, they have no business carrying a gun. They have the right, but it's probably not a good idea.

Kevin

[stevie_d_64]

Finally got some time at home to print out that .pdf file...

Thats some good info...Good comparison between the old and new target...

Thanks...

Good, glad it worked for you. :)

Ryan

Going to have the wife shoot that course of fire once a week till she requalifies...

She'll probably get sick of it, or sick of me...One or the other...

[RioShooter]

I took my test on Saturday (1/21). Our instructor was a very easy-going guy. He allowed the class to start from an aimed position.

He also didn't make a big deal about the time. He told us to just relax and fire on the "fire" command.

[stevie_d_64]

The whole "low ready" issue has kinda bugged me as well...And I do agree its mainly an certifying instructors call on how he/she wants you to "start" the particular section of the course of fire...No big deal to me...

Personally I'd rather do it from a draw, but I understand there may be range safety issues with that idea...

The last time I shot for my renewal...The guy next to me would bring his weapon up to bear on target and shoot on hearing the whistle...

I didn't do that obviously...And I didn't really care...My group (all 50 shots) were still inside 4-6"...His were obviously a bit tighter because he sighted in on target before he had to shoot those sequences...

Either way, its still a pretty easy course of fire, but I believe it is necessary to do regardless of your skill level...

[wrt45]

The whole "low ready" issue has kinda bugged me as well...And I do agree its mainly an certifying instructors call on how he/she wants you to "start" the particular section of the course of fire...No big deal to me...

Personally I'd rather do it from a draw, but I understand there may be range safety issues with that idea...

When running the proficiency portion of the CHL class, I have all my students place their weapon, actions open, on the table in front of them. On command, they are to bring the weapon on target, then fire at the whistle blow. No drawing from holster, or even bringing the gun up from low ready is allowed. Since I don't know the level of gun-handling skills for most of the students, I minimize the actual handling of weapons on the line.

However, we always offer the opportunity for practice scenarios after the actual qualifier is done, and we strongly suggest a practice regimen. I just can't watch everyone closely enough at the same time to be sure of range safety if I have people drawing or firing from differing positions.

[KBCraig]

I think beginning at either "low ready" or "target covered" is just fine. This is not IPSC. There is no time penalty. If someone has a problem going from low ready to target, they're going to have a much harder time staying on target for the entire series.

When I qualify for my job, we shoot at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards. The first course of fire is to draw (from a snapped triple retention duty holster) and fire two shots in three seconds at three yards. We add some time as the range increases, and there are a variety of tactical or emergency reloads, too.

With new people, the hardest part isn't making them fast enough, it's making them slow down! Drawing from a retention holster and getting two aimed shots in three seconds just isn't hard for anyone who doesn't have a physical impairment. Make it four seconds, and you can get two well-aimed shots off, out to 15 yards.

I have to tell you that I don't work with a bunch of Doug Koenigs, but no one has ever failed to qualify because of time constraints.

Kevin