Training against a Dog/animal attacks?

[Paladin]

On thing I found really lacking in my CHL training was on the subject of Dog/animal attacks.

These kinds of attacks are very common. At least as common as criminal attacks. I've had 2 dog attacks in the last year...

But my CHL class didn't cover anything about Texas law regarding dog attacks. It didn't cover anything about what to do when attacked by a dog.

I've read a little about Texas law regarding dog attacks. What I've seen offers a lot of legal protection to a person defending themselves/their animals against a dog attack, but I would have never known it if I didn't look it up myself.

There are also methods you can use against a dog to prevent/stop an attack without shooting... but again my CHL class taught me nothing on the subject.

Fortunately I haven't had to shoot a dog yet, but the methods I used to stop the last attack were all learned on my own.

[dolanp]

My instructor said you had better be seriously threatened before you shoot a dog because Texas does have laws that can get you in trouble. He said to try and avoid it if at all possible, but if the dog is attacking you or could kill your dog then you have the right.

[Paladin]

Have you seen this?


TX HEALTH & S § 822.013

(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1) any person witnessing the attack; or

(2) the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the attack.

(b) A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in control of the dog or coyote.

(c) A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal control authority. The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all damage done by the dog or coyote.

(d) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the local animal control authority.

(e) A person is not required to acquire a hunting license under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or coyote under this section.

[Paladin]

This is a decent article on methods to defend yourself against a dog.

http://www.dogproblems.com/art48.htm

Unfortunately it does not integrate how defending yourself with a firearm goes into the mix.

[Scott Murray]

Thanks for posting this. Most of us are probably more likely to face dog attacks than the criminal kind. I've twice been faced with a large, dangerous (doberman and pit bull) dog threatening my family while taking walks through our neighborhood. Fortunately I haven't yet needed the handgun, but it's been close.

I remember reading some accounts of dogs used in combat in WWII, and some accounts on other forums of dog shootings. I get the impression a pocket pistol might not be all that effective.... that I would need multiple hits with a large caliber round to incapacitate... and that I wouldn't have much time to get them off.

I'd be interested in any more ideas on how to deal with a dog threat. When do you decide to draw and start shooting?

[Paladin]

The first time I and my dog were attacked (by an male Aust. Shepard) I had my .380. I probably waited too long. Dogs do move very fast. I saw the dog come through a hole in his fence and run towards us. He made a distinctive low growl. The low growl is what lets you know that the situation is serious. I think I could have justifiably drawn and fired at that point.

I waited, facing the oncoming dog, while remaining perfectly still. The attacking dog faced off with my dog and they got into a furball. No question the attacking dog was out for blood at that point, so I drew and readied my gun, but it was kind of risky to fire into the furball... So I paused... fortunately the owner showed up, chasing after his dog. He yelled "Don't shoot my dog!" I told him to come get him. We got the dogs separated. My dog had some bites and a mouth full of blood. Eventually the guy gave me $60 of the $90 vet bill. He was unemployed and really didn't have the money to pay me.

This last attack was by the same dog. This time I had my .45 with 230gr JHPs, but didn't have to draw. The story is somewhat complicated, but I ended the attack by yelling "NO!" as loud as a could as I was leaning towards the dog. I was ready to kick him with my boot, but the dog backed off. A second later it looked like he was still interested in fighting, so I yelled "NO!" again. That calmed him down enough so that the owner's brother could finally round him up (the owner finally got a job, but outside of the country). No injuries this time around.

[Bubba]

A very loud and convincing "NO" was effective for me when a large pit bull came charging across a field at me. First I drew and aimed, prepared for the worst. When the owner came out and began yelling at the dog, he cowered even more. I'm thankful that I didn't have to shoot him. The low growl or bark is an indication of the "mode" the dog is in. That is serious in that he is afraid or uncertain and may be dangerous. The low tone indicates a defensive mode. A high pitched bark or yelp indicates "prey" mode or drive and means they feel in control as when chasing their prey for capture. If K9 is man's best friend, then 1911 is a close second :)

[Paladin]

Found another article on dog attacks:

http://www.defendu.com/plan_dog.htm

"Have a Plan for the Dog
by Brad Parker

(Note: This article was originally written for the national magazine Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. The Nov. 2002 issue had the title on the cover as “A Backup’s Nightmare: A Pit Bull’s Got Your Partner, Make the Shot – Miss the Bystander!” )

I was assigned to a team of three other officers during a recent (May 2002) undercover warrant detail for a large southwestern agency.

We had a stack of warrants that had intelligence within the last 24 hours about the whereabouts of the subjects. We already made two arrests and narrowly missed two other subjects earlier in the day, so the intel on the warrants was very good.

The subject of this one warrant was a young tough, known to be a fighter. From the stats on his sheet we could see that he was a big guy too. We had back up from one additional officer from the local municipal police department. The city officer covered the street while we rolled up on the dilapidated house in an unmarked unit. Our team was all in plain clothes and we quickly surrounded the front of the house. Two of the team members split up and took a different corner of the house so each had a view of the side yards. I was the designated cover officer and I advanced up to the front porch with the team leader who was the contact officer.

When we approached the front of the house, we both passed through a gate of one of those three-foot high chain link fences people use to keep small children or poodles on the porch. As the cover officer, I tucked in my loose shirttail exposing my duty weapon and I pulled out my badge on the chain around my neck

I covered the front picture glass window while the team leader knocked on the front door. When he knocked I could hear a dog barking in the garage. The door opened and I could see a male with two small toddlers in diapers crowding his legs, curiously peering out at us.

As it turned out, this male was not our subject and the team leader asked him to step outside and keep the children inside the house. This guy was definitely not our man and his small physical stature and compliant nature allowed us to relax a notch or two.

As the man stepped out of the doorway, he produced his wallet to comply with the team leader’s request for ID. As the cover officer, I was continuing to stay in Condition Yellow and was intently watching the man’s hands, so the first of the dog I saw was as he flashed in front of the homeowner and came into my field of view. The tan and white pit bull was starting to leap toward my partner, hind legs flexed and front legs just leaving the porch.

To me it looked like a slow-motion video as I watched the thick-necked dog launch forward and sink his formidable teeth into my partner’s groin. I could see the muscles in the dog’s back shiver as it bit and shook back and forth, a muffled growl emerging from between it’s clenched jaws. It was the first time the dog had made a sound since it presumably dashed out of the door as the homeowner walked toward us.

A terrified, strangled cry came from my partner. Even though I was transfixed on the dog as it launched it’s attack, I could tell from the almost inhuman noise coming involuntarily from the other officer that he was hit and hit hard.

Something in the back of my mind told me that pit bulls rarely let go of a hold once they bite. I knew I had to shoot the dog to save my partner. We were barely more than an arm’s length from one another when the dog attacked and I was already gripping my Glock 19, it’s stubby barrel starting to clear leather. The attack happened so suddenly, so quickly that I was surprised that my mind was automatically covering all the options. Somehow I knew that I needed to make a contact shot on the dog -- I had to press the muzzle against him to ensure a decisive hit. As my draw cleared the holster and the 9mm started to come up, my mind continued to analyze the problem. It told me that I could not shoot the dog’s head, I would have to make a body shot. But where? I guessed that I would have to shoot through the chest cavity near the shoulder. As my weapon pushed out away from my body, another thought hit me, “I can’t shoot from this angle or the shot will go through the dog and hit my partner in the legs.” I began to step off at an angle to change the trajectory of the bullet’s path.

As I was stepping forward to touch the pistol to the dog’s shoulder, my computer “told” me that the 147-grain hollowpoint round would probably now ricochet off the hard concrete porch – but it also told me that the bullet would not angle toward the house where the kids were, nor would it angle toward the officer covering the corner of the house. My brain did a quick mental shrug and I somehow concluded that it was the best option available to me.

I started to take up the slack on the trigger when the homeowner’s arm came into my field of view. He was reaching in to grab the dog’s collar and he quickly and smoothly pulled the dog completely out of the picture, flinging the dog in through the doorway and abruptly shutting the door.

I was temporarily stunned. I was so close to actually pulling the trigger that it was difficult to return from the brink. At this point I was standing almost directly next to my partner. We looked at each other with wide-open eyes and then quickly looked at his groin to see the damage. Unbelievably, the dog had bit right on the officer’s fanny pack, which this officer routinely wears directly in front on his waist.

The dog’s nails had made some puncture marks through the officer’s Wrangler jeans, but aside from some scratches on his thighs, he was unhurt. His first words to me were, “He was biting on my gun and I was afraid to get my hands down there to try and draw it.”

In debriefing on the incident I was unhappy with some aspects of our performance, but happy with others.

We had planned so intently on dealing with a human subject that we were completely unprepared for dealing with a dog – even though we heard one barking in the garage when we made contact. We did not use the small porch fence to our advantage. It would have been a relatively simple matter to invite the homeowner to talk from the outside of the fence. We relaxed somewhat in dealing with the homeowner who was not our subject and was very cooperative.

On the plus side, I had just completed two straight days of annual firearms training and recertification so my draw was instinctive, quick and smooth. I had also kept my shirttail tucked in allowing an unobstructed draw. My mind had truly worked efficiently in stress mode, rationally covering a myriad of possibilities and results as I moved to make the hit. It seemed calm and reasoned. Details were exquisitely apparent –even the checkered backstrap of my Glock felt incredibly vivid as I made the grip on my pistol.

All I can say to others is: have a plan for dealing with the dog. In this instance we lucked out. The next time we might not be so lucky, but I’ll also be more prepared."

[HighVelocity]

I was returning home from a hunting trip in 1989. I arrived at home to find a very large, 75lbs or so, ragedy looking mutt type dog sitting on my front porch. It was obviously wild and hadn't had any grooming in quite a while.
I tried yelling at it and waving my arms but it didn't move. I retrieved a shotgun from the truck and started towards the porch. The dog started snarling and creeping towards me with his head very low. I swear it was Cujo.
I started backing up slowly and the dog lunged towards me and took a 2 3/4" 12ga load of steel shot to the face. The dog went straight down and did not move again. It was very messy.
I called animal control and they came by and picked up the carcass. It was pretty scary.

[ElGato]

When I walk, I always carry pepper spray, I do think there is more danger of a dog attack when I am with my Border Collie. To be really truthfull I carry OC most of the time and consider it a option somewhere between run or shoot.
Tom

[longtooth]

When I practice at the range I now always have a small cardboard about 8" X 12" at the bottom of my 7 yd, 15 yd & 25 yd targets. No bulls eye or other markings. Dog defense practice is what it is for. When I thought of this & started I was surprised at how much difference there was in point & shoot exersizes to center mass or to the ground. The 7 yd point & shoot at dog height took the most practice. At the beginning I figured it would be no different than center mass at 4.5 ft. Now I take a few shots every time I go at the Dog target. I have been asked a couple of times about why the one at the bottom. When I said go ahead & take a point & shoot shot at a charging dog & see how much difference it is. Most were really surprised. I agree that this needs to be addressed in CHL class also.

[couzin]

OC can be effective on dogs etc, but when some of the more agressive breeds are attacking - it is useless, they just fight thru it. An airweight SW 38 loaded with snakeshot for two rounds and three JHPs is my field weapon and has never had to be used past the snakeshot two times now.

[Greybeard]

Got a 1/2 blind mutt or two in the neighborhood now, eh?

[couzin]

Naw - I wouldnt do that to a neighbor's animal (althought there is this one that tears up my grass something fierce after peeing...). I have had a bunch of encounters with dogs that have 'escaped' and gone feral or were never domestic to begin with. This part of Texas seems that folks think a dog, even pups, have a better chance just being dropped off in a wooded area. They learn to be real mean very quick or they become some other dog's lunch - it really is not a pleasant way to go...

[HankB]

Fortunately for us all, *most* dogs, even strays, are friendly. Or at least indifferent.

'Way back when I was in high school, I found that there were a couple of not-so-friendly mutts around. After one too-close encounter with Cujo, I took to carrying a spray bottle filled with strong ammonia - I don't mean the stuff you get at the grocery story, I used the stuff where they just used to use the vapors to develop diazo blueprints. And I enhanced it with a little (OK, a lot) of powdered cayenne pepper.

It worked VERY well . . .