Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

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Venus Pax
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by Venus Pax »

seamusTX wrote:
Venus Pax wrote:Mars never liked carrying b/c he didn't have a CHL at the time. Our income was below the poverty line then, and there was no way we could have afforded for him to get a CHL.
There is a provision for reducing the fee in case of indigence.

- Jim
At that time in our lives, I doubt we could have even afforded a reduced fee. We didn't know about this provision anyway at that time.
(I keep that in mind when I run across people I think may qualify, as many aren't aware of this kind of thing.)
"If a man breaks in your house, he ain't there for iced tea." Mom & Dad.

The NRA & TSRA are a bargain; they're much cheaper than the cold, dead hands experience.
neal6325
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by neal6325 »

Exactly the reason we should not have to be licensed to execute our 2 amendment right.....should some not be allowed the same right to protect themselves because the cannot afford it while other pay because they can? What other consitutional right is taxed like that?
CHL Instructor, Member NRA (Life), TSRA, GOA, IDPA, FFL holder, Veteran (USN) and of course a proud TEXAS native.
Venus Pax
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Location: SE Texas

Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by Venus Pax »

neal6325 wrote:Exactly the reason we should not have to be licensed to execute our 2 amendment right.....should some not be allowed the same right to protect themselves because the cannot afford it while other pay because they can? What other consitutional right is taxed like that?
I completely agree. We lived in a high-crime area while dh was in college. I remember taking the gun out of the night stand many times just in case, as a lot went on around us. During those times, I was so thankful that my dad bought that gun for me long before.

I can't imagine what people go through that truly have nothing. With the exception of the career welfare recipients (and there are many), most poor people aren't very informed of their rights or of services available to them (claiming indigence for the CHL, for example). Many don't even have one gun because they can't afford it, or they have been programmed to associate it with all that is wrong with their neighborhood.
"If a man breaks in your house, he ain't there for iced tea." Mom & Dad.

The NRA & TSRA are a bargain; they're much cheaper than the cold, dead hands experience.
tbranch
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by tbranch »

neal6325 wrote:Exactly the reason we should not have to be licensed to execute our 2 amendment right.....should some not be allowed the same right to protect themselves because the cannot afford it while other pay because they can? What other consitutional right is taxed like that?
While I agree with the concept, our 2A rights have been and will continue to be under attack. Licensing attempts to keep disqualified people from carrying. I agree that the BGs will carry without a license, but most GGs will not carry if they do not have a license. Having been licensed on and off over the years, I have only carried when I had a license.

Texas has done a good job with limiting costs for those who cannot afford to pay. That said, if a person can afford a handgun and the time and money to practice, they should be able to afford the class and license at the reduced rates.

It will be interesting to see what happens with SCOTUS this year and what impact national elections may have over the next 4 years.

Tom
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KD5NRH
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by KD5NRH »

Some new details, copied from TaurusArmed.net:
PAGEDALE — The pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a robber hasn't been charged with any crime — but the dead robber's accomplice was charged with murder Saturday.

The alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, ran from the scene after the deliveryman shot Reese's friend Thursday night in Pagedale.

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter Avenue in University City, was charged Saturday in St. Louis County in connection with his accomplice's death — even though police say Reese didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Under state law, Reese can be charged with murder because authorities allege he was participating in a crime (in this case, a robbery) during which a person was killed.

Reese was being held in the St. Louis County jail in lieu of $250,000 bail. Advertisement

The robber who died was identified as Brian Smith, 19, of the 600 block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson.

The Domino's pizza deliveryman, whose name has not been disclosed, delivered an order at 7 p.m. Thursday to a phony address in the 6500 block of Julian Avenue in Pagedale. Two armed men approached the driver on foot and announced a robbery, police said.

Police allege the two armed robbers were Reese and Smith.

The driver pulled his own pistol and fired, striking Smith.

Police say Reese ran off with the pizzas, soda and the deliveryman's wallet. Police said they recovered the stolen items at Reese's home on Friday and arrested him.

St. Louis County Police Officer Tracy Panus, a department spokeswoman, said the pizza deliveryman may have been fired at but was not wounded. She said officers found a pistol at the scene that had not been fired.

The deliveryman has a valid permit to carry a weapon and appears to have acted in self-defense, police say.
Kyle(Houston)
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by Kyle(Houston) »

Reese, of the 1200 block of Sutter Avenue in University City, was charged Saturday in St. Louis County in connection with his accomplice's death — even though police say Reese didn't pull the trigger.

The charges against Reese are second-degree murder, first-degree robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

Under state law, Reese can be charged with murder because authorities allege he was participating in a crime (in this case, a robbery) during which a person was killed.
I have seen a few of these cases and I really like what they are doing :thumbs2:
"Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive."
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seamusTX
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by seamusTX »

Kyle(Houston) wrote:
Under state law, Reese can be charged with murder because authorities allege he was participating in a crime (in this case, a robbery) during which a person was killed.
I have seen a few of these cases and I really like what they are doing :thumbs2:
It's always fun to throw the book at 'em ;-) , but in Texas, criminal homicide (murder) and aggravated robbery have the same penalty.

- Jim
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ELB
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Re: Pizza deliveryman who shot robber had gun permit

Post by ELB »

ELB wrote:If the delivery guy worked for Pizza Hut, he'd be fired for defending himself. Which is why I try to avoid Pizza Hut. I'll be interested to see how Domino's handles this, if it makes the news again.

elb
Now I know. If I have the chance to order from Domino's, I'll be sure not to take it.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument
Pizza driver that shot alleged robber flouted rules
By Robert Patrick
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
01/05/2008

The pizza delivery driver who fatally shot a robber last week could have faced discipline over the incident had he not resigned, a Domino's spokesman said Wednesday.

Although the driver was being praised by bloggers with comments such as "Score one for the good guys," many corporations, like Domino's, prohibit armed employees.

Employees sign an agreement in which they agree not to carry a weapon, Domino's corporate spokesman Tim McIntyre said, a policy designed to protect both the public and employees.

"We're driving down … streets. We're going to people's homes. We're also a workplace," he said.

McIntyre added that police had told the company, "There are too many cases in which a person's own weapon has been used against them."

The manager of the University City franchise, which is independently owned, declined to speak to a reporter, and the driver could not be reached for comment. Authorities have not identified him.

Domino's trains employees to minimize their risk, both before and during a robbery, McIntyre said. Drivers are told to carry a cell phone and avoid wearing jewelry or carrying valuables or more than a small amount of cash — typically $20. They're also taught to keep driving if they have doubts about an address and call to verify that the address is legitimate or return to the store, he said.

If robbers approach, drivers are told to "turn over the pizza and empty your pockets."

"The best way to save yourself from harm is to get the situation over as quickly and efficiently as possible," he said. "That typically will result in us needing to replace a pizza but not having to deal with a tragedy."

Domino's also offers security training to other pizza companies to minimize everyone's risk by limiting the potential payoff to would-be delivery robbers.

McIntyre said he didn't know what the former delivery driver told his manager when he resigned. "That's probably an experience he didn't want to confront anymore," McIntyre said.

The driver shot Brian Smith, 19, of the 600 block of Ferguson Avenue in Ferguson, on Dec. 27. His alleged accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, fled with the pizzas, soda and the driver's wallet, police said, and was later charged with first-degree robbery, two counts of armed criminal action and second-degree murder because he was allegedly involved in a fatal crime.

McIntyre said any punishment would not have been "because he (the driver) defended himself. It would be because he violated a policy that he agreed to follow."

"We completely expect to be criticized," he added.

rpatrick@post-dispatch.com | 314-621-5154
Missouri gun rights guy talks back. Good for him, and good for the STL Post-Dispatch for publishing the article:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument
Rights of corporation and employee clash over use of weapon
By Steve Giegerich and Denise Hollinshed
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
01/05/2008

Missouri's firearm statutes gave the Domino's pizza deliveryman who shot and killed a would-be assailant Dec. 28 every right to use a legal weapon to protect himself and his property.

By simply carrying the gun, however, the still unidentified employee violated a company policy prohibiting Domino workers from packing a weapon even if, as happened in Ferguson on the night of the shooting, the employee was using his own car.

To some, the circumstances raise questions about where the right of Missouri citizens to legally keep and bear arms ends and the corporate right to limit liability begins.

"I am not aware of a case quite like it," said Anders Walker, an assistant law professor at St. Louis University. "The legal riddle is whether Domino's can fire this guy because, if he agreed to work for them and signed a contract, he needs to abide by their policies." Advertisement

To borrow a law school term, the question is moot: The deliveryman quit shortly after the death of Brian Smith, 19, of Ferguson, in what authorities say was a robbery attempt.

Another teenager alleged to be Smith's accomplice, Rodney Reese, 18, of University City, has been charged with second-degree murder, first-degree robbery and two counts of armed criminal action.

The deliveryman has not been charged.

Had he not resigned, a Domino's spokesman said this week, the company would have disciplined the deliveryman.

Kerry Messer, a gun rights supporter and lobbyist for the Missouri Family Network, said it's Domino's that stands guilty.

"For a company to ban (employees who deliver) from using firearms makes them a sitting duck for criminals" in high-crime areas, said Messer. RELATED LINK
Pizza driver that shot alleged robber flouted rules

He contends the deliveryman was protected by not only the state's concealed weapons law but also the "Castle Doctrine" permitting Missourians to use force to protect homes and, more recently, cars.

Other businesses that send workers on the road with cash have policies that differ from Domino's.

Deferring to state firearm law, the St. Louis Taxi Commission leaves the decision about allowing drivers to arm themselves up to the individual cab companies.

St. Louis' Harris Cab Company, in turn, leaves the decision to the discretion of the drivers.

"We don't prevent drivers (from carrying) because we want them to be safe," said manager Shermand Palmer.

At Ferguson's Pantera's Pizza, manager Steve Moses subscribes to a philosophy of don't ask, don't tell.

"They can't have a weapon in the store," he said. "But if they have a weapon in their car, I don't know about it. They aren't supposed to, though."

Moses said the popularity of cell phones has made the job of delivering pizzas susceptible to assailants using false addresses to lure delivery drivers into a trap.

Messer said that Domino's policy is "shortsighted."

"He did it legally. It's a shame his employment came under fire because of it. It's definitely not right," said Messer.

sgiegerich@post-dispatch.com | 314-340-8172
USAF 1982-2005
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