Am I the only stupid one who doesn't own a shotgun?

[RKirby]

Shotguns are devastating weapons and great for protection, but they are not magic.

One of the misconceptions about shotguns is that you cannot miss with them. Ask anyone who has tried trap or skeet.

There is way too much false information and misconceptions floating around the various internet gun forums relating to the perceived capabilities of the defensive shotgun.

If you plan on using a shotgun to defend yourself and your family, you need to learn the capabilities of your weapon first hand.

Go to the range and pattern your shotgun with the loads you plan to use for defensive purposes. It could very well prove to be an eye opening experience. My patterns with a 18.5" open cylinder barrel are almost identical to txinvestigators.

If there are tactical shotgun matches held in your area attend one and then come back and tell me it is impossible to miss with a shotgun. Take my word for it, when the pressure is on you can miss an otherwise easy shot.

You will also learn what accessories work and which ones are a liability in a defensive situation. It only took one match for me to discover that a sling hanging loose is a dangerous liability and that a heat shield will come loose and block your ability to see the front sight at the worst possible time.

Yep, shotguns are great defensive weapons when used within their capabilities. But you must learn what those capabilities are first.

[MBGuy]

One question I have is about unintended recipients. Where I live the houses around us are anywhere from 200'-300' away. Let's say that a .40 bullet goes through something that won't do much to slow it down, like glass or an open front door during an attempted home invasion that's just starting. It can do something tragic to my neighbors. What's the story on buckshot going that far and still being lethal? I'm imagining that while the shot can travel that far easy, the spread will be so great as to only harm, not kill, someone that far away. Also having to assume that the shot would go through glass in my house, and then glass in their house to not loose much force.

So is reduced collateral damage a better reason than the now debunked myth of it being hard to miss with a shotgun?

[seamusTX]

Where I live the houses around us are anywhere from 200'-300' away. Let's say that a .40 bullet goes through something that won't do much to slow it down, like glass or an open front door during an attempted home invasion that's just starting. It can do something tragic to my neighbors. What's the story on buckshot going that far and still being lethal?

The general wisdom is that the killing range of shot is about 100 yards. Buckshot will go through several layers of drywall, but loses energy with each obstacle that it passes through. I have not tried to demonstrate it myself.

So is reduced collateral damage a better reason than the now debunked myth of it being hard to miss with a shotgun?

I think it's an excellent reason to choose the shotgun loaded with shot.

- Jim

[Keith B]

One question I have is about unintended recipients. Where I live the houses around us are anywhere from 200'-300' away. Let's say that a .40 bullet goes through something that won't do much to slow it down, like glass or an open front door during an attempted home invasion that's just starting. It can do something tragic to my neighbors. What's the story on buckshot going that far and still being lethal? I'm imagining that while the shot can travel that far easy, the spread will be so great as to only harm, not kill, someone that far away. Also having to assume that the shot would go through glass in my house, and then glass in their house to not loose much force.

So is reduced collateral damage a better reason than the now debunked myth of it being hard to miss with a shotgun?

Here is a good site you may want to check out. While his tests may not be 100% scientific, it is a good point of reference and provides a lot of food for thought.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

Check out 14, 20 & 22 as far as shotgun penetration and patterns.

Regards,

[seeker_two]

I would also consider a coach gun for HD......

1. Short overall length.
2. Two immediate, reliable shots (no pumping/short-stroking b/t shots)
3. Quick to reload (esp. w/ butt cuff)
4. Alternate loads available (sometimes I'll have buckshot in one barrel & a slug in the other).
5. Simple to learn & train with.
6. As American as John Wayne & Granny Clampett....

Just a thought.....I like mine....

[Thane]

Nope. It is the shotgun pictured in the shotgun thread. 20" barrel, no choke.

do you mean open? if yours have removable chokes, you should not shoot with out one in place,

if yours does not have removable, then It's choked at the factory, and will say on the side of the barrel. I find it hard to believe that shot at 3yds came out of an open choke?

I have done similar tests with turkey loads, and have paid A LOT of money to get a 6" group at 15 yards, super full turkey chokes ect...

I recently had opportunity to fire a 14" Remington 870 (yes, it was legal ), and observed the same kind of shot pattern. Open choke, 00 Buck, at three yards, and the hole in the target looked like it came from a slug. At 7 yards, you could make out where each pellet hit, but just barely; it was pretty close to one ragged hole. At 15 yards, you could have covered the pattern with a paper plate.

I have no difficulty believing those shot pattens; they seem quite typical.

[lrb111]

iirc, the best way to open that pattern is with a rifled slug barrel. Otherwise, it's going to be pretty tight at normal self defense distances. My Mossy/Maverick 88 is identical to those patterns.

[Venus Pax]

Stupid, if you're interested, Academcy carries a Mossberg pump shotgun for $169, and it's pretty good. In fact, they can't keep them in stock.
Mars bought one that he keeps by the bed. A fellow band member of his got one for Christmas from his wife. They have both been very happy with them.
Dad and I went to Academy to get one for him, but they were out. (He said he intends to check back periodically because he really wants that gun.)

Just go into Academy and ask them. They will probably be out, but they can tell you when they will get more in.
The guy behind the counter told us that they get about 8 of them in at a time, but they sell out quickly.

[Skiprr]

iirc, the best way to open that pattern is with a rifled slug barrel. Otherwise, it's going to be pretty tight at normal self defense distances. My Mossy/Maverick 88 is identical to those patterns.

The problem with rifled barrels and shot is that the amount of spin imparted to small projectiles is negligible: the pellets don't stay in contact with the walls of the barrel the whole way down the barrel; they don't receive axis-centered rotational spin like a slug. The net result is that the pattern tends to form a ring and expand, or widen, as it travels. For defensive purposes, you want a pattern that pretty much fills up its impact diameter with a uniform cluster of holes. The expanding ring of shot fired from a rifled barrel means that as the distance to target increases, you're more likely to miss the intended point of impact area completely and hit around it.

Too, the rifling causes some amount of deformation of the pellets. And while I've never done (or seen; hm, I wonder if Box-o-Truth is watching) a side-by-side patterning comparison and effectiveness testing of identical shotguns, one with a plain cylinder choke and one with a rifled barrel, my assumption would be that the pellet deformation would decrease the effective defensive range.

I know that's what happens if you choke down on 00 to try to get a tighter pattern. Birdshot can squeeze through the choke, but big pellets don't fit as nicely, and they get mashed together and against the choke. The result is misshapen pellets that won't shoot true and can cause dangerous flyers, pellets that zing off in unexpected directions. The misshapen pellets do decrease the effective range.

But the relatively tight patterns txinvetigator showed on his targets are just about what you want--and would expect--from a defensive shotgun, IMHO. You don't want a two-foot wide spread at seven yards. You want all the pellets to hit the intended target (at pretty much the same time), and you don't want pellets flying past the target.

With 00, the effective range for a defensive shotgun with an 18"-20" barrel is about 25 meters, give or take. That's one reason I keep some slugs on a side-saddle; anything over about 80 feet--and I have time--I'm ammo swapping. With #4 shot, the effective range is less: about 15 meters. The pattern spread with 00 should average somewhere around 2.5" for every 10 feet traveled...give or take a significant margin for error because of type of shot, barrel length, etc. That's why txinvestigator recommended patterning a particular shotgun at varying distances using defensive ammo.

While I'm rambling, one last thing I had drilled into me is: Anytime you pick up a shotgun for personal defense, you should be carrying a sidearm, too. The biggest downside to a shotgun--especially in stucture clearing--is that it isn't very retainable. That's one reason mine all have slings. If you have to do some really tight corner clearing, you're better off getting the shotgun out of the way and using a pistol. Use the right tool for the job at hand. And the best method of stoppage reduction for a shotgun in a fight is to pull it close to your body with your off-hand, and go to your pistol with the other hand.

[The Annoyed Man]

No, you're not. I'm at least as stupid as you are, and like you, I own a number of rifles and pistols, but shotguns just don't call my name.

[Paladin]

Shotguns can be devastating weapons, but training is often a bigger factor in a gunfight.

Moral of the story is train with whatever weapons you select for personal defense.

[xrod69]

dont have one either

[tvone]

Birdshot is not what you want in a HD shotgun. Very limited penetration to vitals. You have to penetrated to CNS or deeply enough to cause blood loss or pelvis breakage to stop a significant threat.

The sound of shotgun being racked just gives away your position. If they are in your house, they're not there for tea. If you need a noise to scare some thugs off, get a big dog. I have 2.

Identify your target with a good light, and stop the threat. Use the best tool for the job, and birdshot is not it. I use #4 buck in the house or 00 reduce recoil. If you're running a semi-; make sure yours will operate with reduce recoil loads.

Definitely not a click and point tool as others have demonstrated. Don't rely on hearsay or such fodder. There's enough good research on the internet to help you make an informed decision if you don't want to take the time and go experiment yourself. My groups from a 22" cylinder bore are just about identical to TXinvestigator's.

I like a shotgun for HD, but I keep an AR as the primary house gun because my wife can handle it better. That's if the alarm and the two dogs don't scare them off first.

Handguns are used if someone is between you and your long gun.

[LedJedi]

nope, you're not the only one man, I had a mossberg 12 gauge for a while and sold it because it was the dipped cammo finish and I never really warmed to that.

However, I DO plan on getting another 12 gauge and setting it up with a barrel as short as legally possible and pistol grips for home defense. I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[Mike1951]

I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Here ya go!