Solid Copper HP

[WildBill]

Lots of data here. http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/

Thanks. I hadn't even noticed their pistol bullets. It wouldn't surprise me if the bullets used in the Taurus loads were made by Barnes or CorBon or another OEM.

Another thing that I noticed on the Taurus box is the statement that the bullets are 99.95% pure copper like that's a big deal. Just another marketing ploy. This purity of copper is actually quite common. It's probably the same used for copper wire.

[ELB]

It wouldn't surprise me if the bullets used in the Taurus loads were made by Barnes or CorBon or another OEM.

I believe Cor-Bon's DPX bullets are in fact Barnes X bullets loaded on top of Cor-Bon's powder load. IIRC the rifle bullets, when expanded, have four petals and form an "X", while the pistol bullets have six petals -- just like in the Taurus picture -- but they are still called "X" bullets.

elb

[G.C.Montgomery]

It wouldn't surprise me if the bullets used in the Taurus loads were made by Barnes or CorBon or another OEM.

I believe Cor-Bon's DPX bullets are in fact Barnes X bullets loaded on top of Cor-Bon's powder load. IIRC the rifle bullets, when expanded, have four petals and form an "X", while the pistol bullets have six petals -- just like in the Taurus picture -- but they are still called "X" bullets.

elb

AFAIK, both the Taurus and Corbon lines use the Barnes "X" Bullet. I haven't seen Taurus branded ammo on a regular basis in about two years and when I do see it now, it's on a clearance sale and in .45ACP only. I've had a chance to run Corbon DPX ammo in all common service calibers. One thing I liked about it was that unlike other Corbon ammo, DPX isn't typically loaded to the high end of SAAMI specifications for any given caliber. The loading data for the X Bullet from Barnes tends to be on the mild to medium side as well. I'm guessing there is little or no value in driving that particular bullet at very high velocities.

Along the lines of earlier posts, I've heard John Farnam praising DPX ammo since before it hit the market. I've heard from other sources that the ammunition lives up to a lot of it's hype particularly with respect to performance through barriers. Now with that said, is it really that much better than lead? I honestly can't answer that because I haven't had the time or inclination to find out. What I can tell you is that lead generally works just fine. If you find that in some way, the Barnes X Bullet is a clearly superior choice for you needs then by all means, buy it. My needs are pretty simple. I need something that cycles reliably, never fails to ignite consitently and delivers reasonable accuracy...in that order.

[WildBill]

I've had a chance to run Corbon DPX ammo in all common service calibers. One thing I liked about it was that unlike other Corbon ammo, DPX isn't typically loaded to the high end of SAAMI specifications for any given caliber. The loading data for the X Bullet from Barnes tends to be on the mild to medium side as well. I'm guessing there is little or no value in driving that particular bullet at very high velocities.

I am guessing that the reason they are loaded to mild to medium levels is that the longer bullet length decreases the case volume and would increase pressures to unacceptable levels at higher velocities.

[HankB]

If a bullet is solid anything, then no part of it, including the point, can be hollow.

[G.C.Montgomery]

WildBill, either theory could apply depending on the cartridge. But as mentioned, my observation is the bullet is often driven at mild to medium velocities even in cases with substantial case volume available after seating and pressures that are well within acceptable SAAMI limits. The difference in density between lead and copper is a little less than 2.4 grams per cubic centimeter. As a result, I am not convinced that the diffence in length of the bullets is due soley to the density of copper relative to lead. I'm also unconvinced the bullet is dramatically superior to conventional lead projectiles at pistol velocities.

[WildBill]

WildBill, either theory could apply depending on the cartridge. But as mentioned, my observation is the bullet is often driven at mild to medium velocities even in cases with substantial case volume available after seating and pressures that are well within acceptable SAAMI limits. The difference in density between lead and copper is a little less than 2.4 grams per cubic centimeter. As a result, I am not convinced that the diffence in length of the bullets is due soley to the density of copper relative to lead. .

The density difference between copper and lead is around 20%. That would account for some increase in length. The author of the article that LedJedi quoted stated that a 185gr lead bullet was around 0.5" and the copper was .725". The other factors that would determine the length would be the internal configuration of the hollow point and the curvature of the tip of the bullet. I don't know what kind of powder they are using so I don't know the case capacity, but generally, for the same amount of powder, in a smaller volume, the pressure will increase.

I interpreted your comment about low to mid velocities was that they purposely limited the velocities of the bullet for performance considerations. I am saying that they are limiting the velocity so that the pressure doesn't exceed SAAMI specifications. The reason I say this is because I think most manufacturers would aim for the higher velocity so that their feet per second and muzzle energy numbers are maximized. The higher the numbers the "better" the product. Better stopping power!

As I stated in my post, "I am guessing." I don't have enough data to prove my guess, and don't really care enough to try to find it. I don't use the copper bullets and have no plans to do so. I am unconvinced the copper bullet is superior to conventional lead projectiles at any velocity.

[WildBill]

If a bullet is solid anything, then no part of it, including the point, can be hollow.

That would be quite a trick. I think he meant to say "pure copper" as in "non-lead"

[stroo]

I use DPX in most of my guns because I shoot them better then anything else. Don't know why but I am more accurate with them then other hollow points. In addition, they are consistently reported to penetrate 14-17 inches and consistently expand. They also are relatively high velocity. Finally, I have read of a few uses by good guys with uniformly good results. I believe Mr. Camp has done some testing of DPX; the one I remember was with 44 special. It just looks to me like a real good round whether new or not.

[WildBill]

I use DPX in most of my guns because I shoot them better then anything else. Don't know why but I am more accurate with them then other hollow points. In addition, they are consistently reported to penetrate 14-17 inches and consistently expand. They also are relatively high velocity. Finally, I have read of a few uses by good guys with uniformly good results. I believe Mr. Camp has done some testing of DPX; the one I remember was with 44 special. It just looks to me like a real good round whether new or not.

stroo - Stephen Camp thinks they're pretty good stuff. One of my problems using DPX would be that I would want to shoot several hundred rounds to check out the reliability in my autoloader and at over a dollar each, that is just too much money. A revolver is a different story. Shoot a couple to check point of aim, and I am ready to go.

[casingpoint]

As stated by Taurus, the accuracy of this copper round may be exceptional. But the penetration of 10.5 to 11.5 inches fails to meet Martin Fackler’s recommendation of 12.5 to 14 inches. http://missouriconcealedcarry.blogspot. ... ation.html

The specs of 180 grains and 950 fps is an obvious attempt to duplicate the 10mm FBI load designated after the Miami shootout, which morphed into the .40 S&W. Apparently the180/950 combo in .45 ACP it has shortcomings over the .40. http://www.glockfaq.com/cartridge.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Finally, there are the street results level observations of Evan Marshall regarding caliber choice. The choice of +P Gold Dot 9mm @1220fps with 410 ft/lbs ME for duty ammo by the NYPD may be the one of few things come out of Gotham City on the up-and-up with the rest of the country. Marshall’s street study below was probably all done before the introduction of the .357 SIG round:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Marshall’s comments on this newly authorized duty round of the Texas DPS are no doubt found in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Power-Pr ... 158160128X

[WildBill]

casingpoint - That's an interesting link to the FBI reference concerning overpenetration: "The fear of overpenetration is a misconception which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves."

[KBCraig]

Just wondering if anyone has any input on this.

The certified 99.95% pure copper, non-fouling bullet material,

Since when is copper "non-fouling"?

Perhaps it's less of an issue in handguns, but rifle shooters, especially milsurp rifles, are very familiar with copper fouling.