30.06 posting - Scenario II

[LedJedi]

30.06 scenario II – A local small business you frequent at least on a semi-regular basis now has a 30.06 sign (NOT a ghostbuster sign) posted on their front (and only) door as you approach to enter. By all measures the posting seems to be legitimate and is clearly visible, but the text appears to be 1/4 to 1/8 of an inch too small in your estimation. Otherwise the sign has the correct text, placement and contrast. You are parked 10 feet away and, of course, are armed. What do you do?

[shaggydog]

Jedi - I voted "Other". I, most likely, would disarm, conduct the business I came for, and leave, however, In the future, because of the mere inconvience of disarming, I would attempt to locate another business that provides the same service but is not posted. If, however, this is the only business available providing that service then I will continue to use them and will disarm as they wish.

I really do not want to get into this discussion too deeply but I DO respect the intent if not the letter and I am a firm believer in the rights of private business to conduct business as they see fit. This means that they may exclude whomever they whish from their customer base. There are those that confuse a business that caters to the public with a public business. These two may not be the same and the rules differ if they are not.

[gregthehand]

Jedi - I voted "Other". I, most likely, would disarm, conduct the business I came for, and leave, however, In the future, because of the mere inconvience of disarming, I would attempt to locate another business that provides the same service but is not posted. If, however, this is the only business available providing that service then I will continue to use them and will disarm as they wish.

I really do not want to get into this discussion too deeply but I DO respect the intent if not the letter and I am a firm believer in the rights of private business to conduct business as they see fit. This means that they may exclude whomever they whish from their customer base. There are those that confuse a business that caters to the public with a public business. These two may not be the same and the rules differ if they are not.

. I would just try to do business elsewhere, if I can't so be it.

[LedJedi]

Jedi - I voted "Other". I, most likely, would disarm, conduct the business I came for, and leave, however, In the future, because of the mere inconvience of disarming, I would attempt to locate another business that provides the same service but is not posted. If, however, this is the only business available providing that service then I will continue to use them and will disarm as they wish.

I really do not want to get into this discussion too deeply but I DO respect the intent if not the letter and I am a firm believer in the rights of private business to conduct business as they see fit. This means that they may exclude whomever they whish from their customer base. There are those that confuse a business that caters to the public with a public business. These two may not be the same and the rules differ if they are not.

I think that's a very fair and reasonable stance, no doubt.

This issue strikes a special note with me as my grandmother runs a very popular restaurant in my home town. He has, on occasion, chosen to bar disruptive individuals from her establishment and she has every right to do so as she is a private business on private property. You must respect her rights to do business as she sees fit. It is your choice to continue to do business with her, but hers to run her business in accordance with her wishes.

In my mind, respecting her rights to post a 30.06 sign is closely tied to the above.

That being said, Knowing my grandmother and my family in general she would more likely post a "discount for valid CHL customers" sign, but it's the principle of the issue. If an honest business owner makes a legitimate attempt to post a 30.06 and is out of compliance through some technicality I believe we have a moral duty to honor the business owner's request. (though perhaps not a legal one, if the sign is out of compliance)

I'm not saying the laws are too exact, don't read that into this. The law is written as it is to protect CHL folks and I believe is great as it's written. This is more about respecting the rights and intent of a private property owner. It bothers me a lot to hear that many folks would cruise right on past a non-compliant sign that was close enough for government work.

[shaggydog]

I believe we have a moral duty to honor the business owner's request. (though perhaps not a legal one, if the sign is out of compliance)

I agree except for the word "we". I have a moral duty to honor their request but I have no control over the moral barometer of others. There are those that argue that the 1st amendment gives them a license to assault my ears with their profanities even in a public setting. Legal? Probably. Morally acceptable? Not to me but if their moral baseline is that low then it may well be acceptable to them. I find that a shame.

[bpet]

I would honor the sign and mark the business off as not cool anymore.

When I took my class, the intent of 30.06 was made clear during the training and I fully understood the intent of the sign when I had completed the course. I see no reason to second guess the intent today just because I may not totally agree with it. I will honor 30.06 signs when I see them even if I believe they may not be 100% compliant with the letter of the law.

I assume, of course, that the owner also fully understands the intent of the sign.

[WarHawk-AVG]

Why?

Why should we as law abiding jumping thru hoops lawful and licensed concealed handgun carriers have to be made to walk a tightrope while those anti's out there can get away with a "you know what I meant" improperly posted sign?

It is spelled out in BLACK AND WHITE and ignorance of the law is NO excuse..sorry..your sign is 100% invalid

I believe that anti's that want to post a valid 30-06 sign MUST order one from the DPS at $100 a pop (we have to pay to get licensed right?) and those signs are the only VALID way to prevent licensed carriers from entering a public venue, then they can be put in a public database where anyone that wants to find out if you can or cant legally carry just has to look it up online, w/ the owner/managers name and contact info (I guarantee someone somewhere has YOUR info!!!!)

Its time we stop letting the anti's push us inch by inch to the end where we loose our rights to protect ourselves...long ago that cliff was a mile away...now if you look behind you, you will notice that cliff is just a few short steps away

To put it another way...the water keeps getting hotter..but the frog keeps swimming

[bpet]

I'm sorry. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere in the scenario that the man is an "anti". While I understand your position on protecting your right and not giving the"'antis" any concession, I think I answered the "Why" question.

I was asked my opinion, and I voted and explained why. I respect intent of the law as well as letter of the law and letters that are 1/8" too small (in my estimation - scenario never said anything about measuring the letters), seems to me to be close enough.

I respectfully understand your position but I just feel like I agreed to something when I signed up for my license and I will continue to respect that commitment to abide.

[WarHawk-AVG]

I'm sorry. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere in the scenario that the man is an "anti". While I understand your position on protecting your right and not giving the"'antis" any concession, I think I answered the "Why" question.

I was asked my opinion, and I voted and explained why. I respect intent of the law as well as letter of the law and letters that are 1/8" too small (in my estimation - scenario never said anything about measuring the letters), seems to me to be close enough.

I respectfully understand your position but I just feel like I agreed to something when I signed up for my license and I will continue to respect that commitment to abide.

And you can be immortalized on Wikipedia in a new "no-guns zone massacre" like the Luby's Massacre" with your firearm maybe 100 feet away in your vehicle

Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms.Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws. She said that had there been a second chance to prevent the slaughter, she would have violated the Texas law and carried the handgun inside her purse into the restaurant.

Will you wish you had a 2nd chance?

Invalid sign = Invalid/unlawful/worthless

[LedJedi]

I'm sorry. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere in the scenario that the man is an "anti". While I understand your position on protecting your right and not giving the"'antis" any concession, I think I answered the "Why" question.

I was asked my opinion, and I voted and explained why. I respect intent of the law as well as letter of the law and letters that are 1/8" too small (in my estimation - scenario never said anything about measuring the letters), seems to me to be close enough.

I respectfully understand your position but I just feel like I agreed to something when I signed up for my license and I will continue to respect that commitment to abide.

And you can be immortalized on Wikipedia in a new "no-guns zone massacre" like the Luby's Massacre" with your firearm maybe 100 feet away in your vehicle

Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms.Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws. She said that had there been a second chance to prevent the slaughter, she would have violated the Texas law and carried the handgun inside her purse into the restaurant.

Will you wish you had a 2nd chance?

Invalid sign = Invalid/unlawful/worthless

i certainly wouldn't have eaten there. I generally refuse to patronize business that do not allow me to protect myself. The only way i would have been in lubys would have been if i were allowed to be armed.

Rest assured that I'd have died with a smoking gun in my hand.

your argument/example does not apply to the situation (at least for me) because it wouldn't have happened that way. "Disarm and do business as usual" isn't even on the list. If you're going to do that you might as well not even have a CHL imo.

[bpet]

Molon_labe wrote:

bpet wrote:I'm sorry. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anywhere in the scenario that the man is an "anti". While I understand your position on protecting your right and not giving the"'antis" any concession, I think I answered the "Why" question.

I was asked my opinion, and I voted and explained why. I respect intent of the law as well as letter of the law and letters that are 1/8" too small (in my estimation - scenario never said anything about measuring the letters), seems to me to be close enough.

I respectfully understand your position but I just feel like I agreed to something when I signed up for my license and I will continue to respect that commitment to abide.



And you can be immortalized on Wikipedia in a new "no-guns zone massacre" like the Luby's Massacre" with your firearm maybe 100 feet away in your vehicle

Well, again, I'm sorry. I don't believe I made it clear that the option I selected in the poll was to "Honor the sign, leave and write that business off of your list of cool places to go."

Note specifically that the option includes the word "leave". It is with that in mind that I feel comfortable that I would not be caught inside the business un-armed and would therefore not "...be immortalized on Wikipedia in a new "no-guns zone massacre" like the Luby's Massacre" with your firearm maybe 100 feet away in your vehicle".

Please accept my sincere apology for not making myself clear in this respect.

[mr surveyor]

there is NO "one size fits all" scenerio


sssoooooooo....other!

[phddan]

It would be pretty obvious if the letters were 1/4" short, not so obvious at 1/8".
I would walk right by the sign at 1/4".

I really don't understand the argument of respecting their wishes.
There is a group of folks that find it morally reprehensable to let women out in public without being covered from head to toe. Are you going to respect their wishes and make your wife and daughters dress in burkas??? Unless you do, I find these arguments highly hipocritical.
You can't run around and try to respect EVERYBODY'S wishes. Impossible. Can't be done.

Dan

[mr surveyor]

.....There is a group of folks that find it morally reprehensable to let women out in public without being covered from head to toe. Are you going to respect their wishes and make your wife and daughters dress in burkas???

In my opinion, that's not a very good analogy, unless you are trying to make a case for a business owner requiring women to wear a burkha to enter their place of business. In that case, put it on, or don't go in. No shirt, no shoes, no service. Otherwise, you can't mix individual responsibility to respect private property owner's rights with just a general "out in public" appearances.

[jimlongley]

I would not enter the business, but would ask someone inside to call a manager or owner out so that I could present them with my card and tell them why they were going to lose my business and that of anyone else I could influence.