Gun Show CHL Question

[CodeJockey]

So yesterday, I went to the Fort Worth Gun Show. They have police officers at the entrance to check / secure firearms with zip ties. They had several signs posted that said something to the effect, "ALL firearms must be unloaded and secured before entry into the show is permitted. No Exceptions". I don't remember the specific wording, but it was very similar to that. So I happen to know one of the LEO that was working the booth and we were chatting. He had several magazines and spare bullets on the shelf behind him which he said came mostly from CHLs because they did not realize that the sign applied to them. I really didn't say anything about this one way or the other; however, that is not accurate right? There was definitely NOT a 30.06 sign posted anywhere, and I certainly don't remember anything in the statutes about gun shows. I would think if a gun show wanted to restrict access by CHL, then they would need to post a 30.06 sign. Am I wrong here?

[lrb111]

You are correct. Until there is a legal challenge they will continue to get away with it.
Best scenario I can think of is a state legislator refusing to disarm, and then taking it to a vote on penalties for disarming law abiding citizens.

That seems to be the bottom line.

[boomerang]

It doesn't sound like a valid sign. Did they have a metal detector? Were police at the show carrying "unloaded and secured" guns?

Even if it was a valid sign, 30.06 makes no distinction between loaded and unloaded. And if they let you in with a handgun that sounds like consent.

[Rokyudai]

The gunshows here are often posted with 30.06 which takes the guess work out of whether or not I'm going to carry in there. It sounds to me though that they are not posting a valid sign at your particular venue.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Is the FW Gun Show held in/on government property or is it a privately owned venue?

If it's private, I think they can have any policy they want. No guns, no loaded guns, guns OK for (off duty) cops, or cops on detail, but no one else - whatever they want.

Whether they have metal detectors or not has nothing to do with it. Whatever the detail cops are instructed to do, they will do. And if someone wants to attend the show, they will have to comport with whatever rules are in place. If they do otherwise, it's at their own risk.

At least that's my take on it.

[CodeJockey]

The FW gunshow was being held at the Amon Carter Exhibit Hall. I have no idea if it is private property, but either way, how does that differ from say, a local restaurant. If the restaurant wants to prevent CHLs from carrying concealed then they need to post a compliant 30.06 sign. I don't see how the gun-show is any different. The gun show is a business in that it charges an entry fee, hires employees, sells concessions, and charges fees to vendors. Perhaps I'm confused, but I don't see how it could be illegal for a CHL to carry a concealed firearm if they have no compliant 30.06 sign posted.

[boomerang]

They can have whatever policy they want but the law is the law.

[frankie_the_yankee]

They don't need a sign. They can give verbal notice. If they tell you you can't come in with a gun, a loaded gun, etc., or that this person (say, an off duty cop) can and you can't, then guess what? You can't.

Edit: A little further checking reveals that the Amon Carter Exhibit Hall is a city owned facility.

http://www.ftworthgunshow.com/mapsdirections.html

Of course, the operators of the gun show are a private business that has the use of the facility for the event.

Government-owned or leased facilities cannot post enforceable 30.06 signs. Many believe that this also applies to any private business that may rent or lease the government-owned facility on either a short term or a long term basis. For instance, the AA center in Dallas is owned by the city but the (private) operators hold a 30 year lease. So people holding the above belief would say that the AA Center can not legally ban CHL's from entering while carrying guns.

But the AA Center disagrees, and regardless of how someone may interpret the law, they have a policy where they do not allow CHL's to carry guns at many (possibly all) events held there. To date, there has been no challenge to this "policy" which has been described by management as a "house rule" in various email correspondence. (There's a long thread on this going back a few months or so.)

FWIW, I happen to believe that the private operators do have the right under the law to ban people from carrying guns regardless of who the fee simple owner of the property might be. But that's just my opinion. IANAL. And this was thoroughly aired out in the old thread I referred to with my opinion being in the distinct minority. (Possibly a minority of one.)

But the reality is that there is no case law on the subject, and the AA Center is banning guns whenever they choose to.

I suspect that the operators of the FW Gun Show believe they have the same discretion as the operators of the AA Center, and they are acting on those beliefs.

It's true as one person posted, that "the law is the law." But absent case law, there can be varying opinions as to exactly what the law means. If the people who have the keys to the building (i.e. the people in effective control of who gets inside) believe it means one thing, and someone else (who wants to get in) believes it means something else, it is the people with the keys' opinion that will carry the day.

And a person's only real recourse would be to bring some kind of a civil action (expensive), or seek to have the legislature clarify or change the law as needed when they next meet.

Some people choose to carry concealed anyway, claiming it as their right. I would not recommend doing this. If someone doing that got "made", they would be in trouble with the law. They might win in the end and they might not, but either way it will cost them a pile of money.

[tbranch]

I'll throw in another thought. It's probably not a good idea to have loaded and unloaded weapons in the same place. Given some of the things many of us have seen, it could be problematic.

While on active duty we took a bunch of M-16s loaded with blanks out in the field (off base) as part of a training exericse. We also had to have loaded weapons to protect the M-16s. Rather than taking another M-16 with live rounds along, we decided to carry sidearms.

So while posting it may not be legal, it may make sense in the bigger picture of things.

YMMV

Tom

[Mike1951]

I am one that believes that all signs on a govt owned facility are rendered void and unenforceable.

But I'll throw something else out for thought.

I truly believe that if we were to win this argument, we would lose big time.

Whether by a case ruling or an AG opinion, if it were announced that gun show promoters were not allowed to post their shows, I doubt their insurance provider would continue to underwrite gun shows.

No insurance, no gun shows.

I carried today into the Conroe Show as I do in all shows held on public property.

But I make no issue of it, even when having another gun inspected and tied.

But that's just me.

[cbr600]

I'll throw in another thought. It's probably not a good idea to have loaded and unloaded weapons in the same place. Given some of the things many of us have seen, it could be problematic.

Are you suggesting peace officers should disarm while shopping at a gun show?

[tbranch]

Are you suggesting peace officers should disarm while shopping at a gun show?

I'm not suggesting that peace officers or CHLs disarm at gun shows. My thoughts center around risk management and by allowing as few loaded weapons as possible they limit the risk of an ND.

...if it were announced that gun show promoters were not allowed to post their shows, I doubt their insurance provider would continue to underwrite gun shows.

Mike did a better job with the thought than I did...

Tom

[Liberty]

Are you suggesting peace officers should disarm while shopping at a gun show?

I'm not suggesting that peace officers or CHLs disarm at gun shows. My thoughts center around risk management and by allowing as few loaded weapons as possible they limit the risk of an ND.

...if it were announced that gun show promoters were not allowed to post their shows, I doubt their insurance provider would continue to underwrite gun shows.

Mike did a better job with the thought than I did...

Tom

This arguement keeps coming up, and I also don't understand it. While I understand the signs are not legal. The intent is a good one and harmless. If you bring it in concealed. Keep it concealed. No one will know, and you can find comfort in the fact that if it ever went to court you would win. One can disarm oneself keep the mag in a pocket. let them tie wrap the gun. one can arm themself on the way out. very small inconvieniance.

It would be different if there weren't so many NDs at these shows. A wise man chooses his battles this one just doesn't sem worth pickin.

[tbranch]

While I understand the signs are not legal. The intent is a good one and harmless. If you bring it in concealed. Keep it concealed. No one will know, and you can find comfort in the fact that if it ever went to court you would win. One can disarm oneself keep the mag in a pocket. let them tie wrap the gun. one can arm themself on the way out. very small inconvieniance.

I think we're on the same page on this...

Tom

[Mike1951]

One can disarm oneself keep the mag in a pocket. let them tie wrap the gun. one can arm themself on the way out. very small inconvieniance.

Attendees are frequently asked if they have any ammunition with them. You will either have to lie about having it, return to your vehicle and leave it, or throw it away to be admitted.

I leave my carry in my pocket, loaded, and there is no chance of it coming out unless someone in attendance starts shootin'.

In the days before everyone had a cell phone, I rode with a friend to the show. I was carrying a PPK, which I declared and unloaded it to be tied. But I couldn't enter the show with the rounds from the magazine, my friend had gone in ahead, and I had no way to access his truck.

This helped to form my opinion about carrying in gun shows.