Do I intervene? Interactive Case History

[ELB]

One of the topics that invariably and repetitively pops up on gun/self-defense forums is "When do I go to the defense of others?" or more succinctly,"Do I intervene?" Most, if not all of these seem to start with a hypothetical situation. I thought it would be more fun to use a real one, and dribble out the info over a series of posts. I came across a really good one for this, reported in another state -- it incorporates several "discussion points" that regularly appear in such threads, with a couple good twists to keep it interesting.

Here's the roolz:

1. I am going to post just a couple lines at a time from the article, and invite some discussion on "What would you do?" or "What would you have done" depending on the facts at hand.

2. After three of four posts (or when I get back to the computer after doing some other chores that I should be doing instead of sitting at the computer) I will post a couple more lines, which reveal some additional facts in the story, or how the previous sub-incident turned out.

3. I am changing a couple words here and there in the story as reported in order not to give away details that appear later. I will italicize the changes.

4. No fair googling for the story and shaping your answers based on what hasn't been revealed yet! Same-same if you happen to have already run across this story. When I get to the end I will post the link to the original story.

As far as I can tell, this is an actual incident reported by a newspaper, and it is quite interesting, to me at any rate.

Okey-doke, here goes:

Joe Baggadonuts was outside Falsetta's Market at 2200 Pittsfield Blvd. at about 4 p.m. Wednesday when he saw a man loudly arguing with a woman and trying to push her into a van, said Detective Lt. Steve Heller.

OK, sports fans, what play do you call?

elb

[seamusTX]

At this point we don't know whether it's a kidnapping, domestic abuse, someone trying to get a drunk or mentally ill woman to safety, or a bounty hunter arresting a bail jumper.

Missing details of appearance and behavior would be helpful.

Calling 911 might be appropriate at this point, depending upon those details. A license plate number and description of the vehicle would be useful to the police.

- Jim

[KC5AV]

I agree. At this point, it's best to just watch.

[nuparadigm]

...

Missing details of appearance and behavior would be helpful.

.... A license plate number and description of the vehicle would be useful to the police.

- Jim

Yes. Absent more data, I'd just watch and listen at this point.

[CHL/LEO]

As a civilian CHL holder:

Based upon what you have disclosed so far - be a good witness and call 911 to report a possible disturbance. Give descriptions of the individuals and vehicle including license plate number. 911 might ask you to stay on the phone until officers arrive. If the vehicle leaves the location tell 911 the direction they headed. No need to follow the vehicle based upon this information.

As an off-duty LEO & CHL holder:

Basically the same as above except that I might call my dispatcher directly instead of 911 depending upon what exactly I did observe. I might also step toward the vehicle and ask the women if everything was OK and did she need help. Both his and her responses would dictate my next actions.

[ELB]

I might also step toward the vehicle and ask the women if everything was OK and did she need help. Both his and her responses would dictate my next actions.

I'm not a LEO, but I might do the same thing. I would try to keep an object (light pole, mail-drop, what-have-you) between me and the other guy, just in case.

So let's see what happened:

Mr. Baggadonuts said he asked if everything was OK and told the woman she didn't have to get into the vehicle. He said the man told him to mind his own business, and they left in the van.

The victim went into a nearby store and called police before he left.

OK, our hero made small verbal intervention, then went into witness mode. Good Citizen! But remember, no good deed goes unpunished...

While stopped at a red light at Carpenter and Packard roads a few minutes later, Joe Baggadonuts said the driver of the van confronted him and began yelling.

As one of my boyhood TV heroes often said, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" Now what?

elb

[Stupid]

My rule would be, if I have to ask myself "Do I intervene?" then, no, I am not going to intervene.

[SC1903A3]

I'm assuming that Mr. Baggadonuts is not blocked in. I'd check my 3 and 9 o'clock and run the red light and head towards the PD.

[seamusTX]

Once again we don't have enough details.

If the van driver is in his vehicle and yelling, I would keep an eye on him without appearing to stare, and wait for him to drive on.

If he got out and approached me, I would maneuver away as stated above.

I would not think a kidnapper would leave his victim. A domestic abuser might.

- Jim

[dac1842]

still I am observing, getting license plate number, vehicle description, I am on the phone with 911 stating I dont know if it is domestic disturbance, kidnapping IP or what. If it goes mobile I go with it maintaing a safe distance staying on the phone wth 911

[bps3040]

still I am observing, getting license plate number, vehicle description, I am on the phone with 911 stating I dont know if it is domestic disturbance, kidnapping IP or what. If it goes mobile I go with it maintaing a safe distance staying on the phone wth 911

+1

[ELB]

Sorry, you're getting all the details there are to get from this article. I think there are enough facts to make some prudent decisions.

So what did our intrepid Mr. Baggadonuts do?

He said he exited his vehicle...

I would not have done this short of the car being unmovable and significantly on fire...

and was punched in the face and knocked to the ground, Heller said.

...for this very reason. I'm with the posters above who would be merrily driving away, down the sidewalk if necessary. military anti-terrorist courses taught me to keep some maneuver room if at all possible when stopping in traffic. Comes in handy sometimes.

But wait, it gets more, um, interesting...

Two women, including the woman he tried to help, got out of the van and began hitting and stomping the victim while he was on the ground, Heller said

Now what?

elb

[seamusTX]

Mr. Baggadonuts made huge mistake by getting out of his vehice. Definitely this was a domestic situation. I hope he gets out of the hospital soon and has good health insurance.

Cops would rather go into a bank robbery than a domestic.

- Jim

[Venus Pax]

I would call the cops and give them the location and the license plate, while keeping my distance.

If Mr. Wifebeater sees and disapproves, too bad. I'm staying on the phone until cops get there. If he chooses to direct his attack at me, then he is choosing poorly. I made the decision long ago that I will not tolerate a man assaulting me.

Yes, I realize that many women choose to stay in abusive relationships. I can't change that. But I'm not going to stand there and do nothing, or drive away as if nothing is happening.

[locknload]

I would call the cops and give them the location and the license plate, while keeping my distance.

If Mr. Wifebeater sees and disapproves, too bad. I'm staying on the phone until cops get there. If he chooses to direct his attack at me, then he is choosing poorly. I made the decision long ago that I will not tolerate a man assaulting me.

Yes, I realize that many women choose to stay in abusive relationships. I can't change that. But I'm not going to stand there and do nothing, or drive away as if nothing is happening.

+1 In fact, I have done as stated on several occasions.