Anarchy at McDonalds

[LedJedi]

First off, I got nowhere near drawing down on these fools, but it was a good reinforcement to me that one should 1) Never underestimate the stupidity or rudeness of the public and 2) always always always be aware of your surroundings.

6:30 pm yesterday, McDonalds near the bus station downtown, Houston.

Doors are locked and 9mm is in it’s holster between the seats where it normally is. It’s a BAD neighborhood, but the only quick place to stop on the way home before hitting the highway.

I pull in from the back entrance and que up in a 3-4 car line waiting in the drive-through. I’m not in the marked lane for the DT because there’s a line and no room for me to pull into the lane from my entrance in the lot so I’m just patiently waiting for a spot to open up. In all fairness, I’m taking up about ½ of the 2-lane entrance/exit to my side of the McD’s lot because I’m waiting for the line to move up. Nowhere else to go, but not a good place to be.

About 30 seconds after I pull in some guy pulls around to use the entrance/exit I’m patiently waiting in. I guess he wasn’t happy with the amount of room left him so he sits there for a second. I look around to see if there’s a way I can pull out, but my only real option is to pull up out of waiting for the line, exit the lot, drive around the block and come back in, by which time the line will have moved.

So I roll my window down to explain this to the guy as I’m looking around for a better place to go. I hear a steady stream of obscenities coming from the now open window and look over. He’s hanging with both arms flailing out of his window calling me every name in the book. He looks to be a bit of the un-hinged sort. I probably raised an eyebrow but calmly apologize for being in his way and ask him to give me 30 seconds and I should be able to pull in line and out of his way.

I’m not even sure he heard me over his own potty mouth. He was getting personal now too. I kindly point out at that juncture he’s more than able to back up 15 feet or so and use the other exit to the lot and try to explain that if I pull out of where I am … yadda yadda. He still hasn’t taken a breath and about that time a big van pulls up in the DT line effectively blocking his backup. He gets even more irate and I just sit back and roll up my window. I suppose I could have pulled around the block and had he been a little more civil I might have I guess, but I would have been content to wait there for another 30 seconds.

I make a mental note that if he gets out of his car and starts to come over I’m PROBABLY authorized to draw down on him if needed, but it’s a much wiser plan to just hit the gas and leave the area if it comes to that. About that time the line moves and I can scoot up. He peels out and races out of the lot, almost hitting another car in the process.

I just kind of chuckle to myself and note that I’ve met my quota of crazy folks for the day and the wife and I discuss what we want to order. We get parked to wait for our food. I make a mental note of a vagrant sitting just outside the restaurant door our server will be coming out of that’s about 8 feet from my 7 o’clock. I can keep an eye on him in the mirror so I roll down my window and wait for the food to come out. As soon as I say something to my wife some guy steps out the door and SCREAMS at the top of his lungs something completely unintelligible. I jump a bit since he does this about 4 feet from my door.

First instinct was that the guy from earlier is back. I read the guy in the mirror and he looks perfectly normal other than the fact that he just howled at the moon. I watch him slowly shuffle past us on the sidewalk talking to himself the whole while. He stops at the end of the pavement and does a sort of funky chicken dance, but kicking one of his legs up above his waist in the process. The wife and I can’t help but chuckle a bit at that.

About that time our food came out.

This is one of the first “uncool encounters� I’ve had since getting the CHL. I noticed that as soon as I spotted trouble my mind immediately went to the gun and started running scenarios as to how the law applied to the situation. I consider that a good thing. I also give myself points for never seriously considering drawing, opting for my immediate plan to be leaving the area should it escalate.

It also dawned on me that when I was younger I’ve yelled at a few idiots for doing stupid stuff from the window of my car. I don’t think I’ve ever streamed obscenities at someone, especially not with their wife sitting in the car next to them, but I’ve had a few choice words for idiots. I think back and wonder how many of those idiots had a gun .05 seconds reach away and how many of them may have considered shooting me on the spot. Now I haven’t felt inclined to do anything so stupid in years, but it’s always good to learn both sides of a lesson.

On the way home the wife and I discussed the scenario with the guy yelling from his car and what would be appropriate and legal, etc. We agreed that drawing down on the guy would have been legal IF he got out of his vehicle and approached us in a threatening manner. That, however, would have violated one of our rules of not drawing unless you are already justified in shooting so as not to give up the element of surprise in that you are armed. We agreed that the overall best option at that point would have been to leave the lot. Good to think those scenarios through with each-other.

On the way home we were also discussing places we could stop for a snack that didn’t include dinner and a show.

[Keith B]

I would have to disagree with your statement on being justified to draw your weapon if he approached your car. Verbal threats do not justify use of force. Unless you see he has a weapon on approaching, or starts trying to enter or damage your vehicle, you have to either ignore him, or move on. You best bet would be having the wife dialing 911, being at the ready, but no weapon drawn and leaving the location.

My two cents.

[LedJedi]

I would have to disagree with your statement on being justified to draw your weapon if he approached your car. Verbal threats do not justify use of force. Unless you see he has a weapon on approaching, or starts trying to enter or damage your vehicle, you have to either ignore him, or move on. You best bet would be having the wife dialing 911, being at the ready, but no weapon drawn and leaving the location.

My two cents.

ah, yep, you're 100% correct. In my mind i saw that scenario as him either having a weapon on trying to beat on the car, but I didn't actually describe that in the scenario. good point.

[TScottTX]

Don't put yourself in a position that you even have to think "would I be justified". You created a situation (by blocking traffic) that could have gotten ugly. Stay safe...

[LedJedi]

Don't put yourself in a position that you even have to think "would I be justified". You created a situation (by blocking traffic) that could have gotten ugly. Stay safe...

nahhh, had i actually been blocking traffic I'd have moved before he even came up. He had a whole lane to exit out. I was only sitting in the 'in' side of the lane and nobody was behind me waiting to come in. Now I might have been blocking someone else from coming in that entrance, but nobody was qued up behind me. I could have gotten my big CRV out that lane he had left so I know his little ford ranger would have gone with room to spare. In either case, the point was his irrational reaction to the situation, even after I tried to talk to him as an adult and then me playing the "what if" game from there.

I constantly run the "would I be justified / what if" question over in my head with scenarios. We do that here on the board all day. You even played along just a second ago by pointing out that I would have not been had he not had a weapon or been damaging the car. I can't imagine that you would NOT advocate playing the what-if game. That's the primary model we use here on the board to learn from. Perhaps I simply didn't communicate that running a "scenario" in my words is the same thing to me as "what if".

I completely agree with you. Verbal threats don't constitute justification of force and the scenario i described above was just that. I simply described something that was different than what was playing in my head.

He went on his merry way to harass someone else and I learned something from the experience, just as I'm learning something from this conversation (make sure you communicate clearly what you're thinking).

[57Coastie]

Having been in attendance at a hospital very near this McDonalds for two months, and having regrettably stopped there once for a little variety in the diet, I cannot help but observe that this particular McDonalds, along with the bus station across the street, are good places in general to stay away from, even if you are exercising your unique licensing privilege at the time. (And yes, the cuisine at McDonalds can be an improvement when you are accustomed to eating hospital food for a couple of months.)

Reading the above I must in fairness to myself and others note that my comment is not to any extent prompted by racism. The type of individuals I encountered in this neighborhood represented a multitude of different races and genders, including mine.

[ELB]

Absent a weapon in the guy's hand, I wouldn't "draw down" on him, but I don't see any problem at all in Ledjedi drawing his pistol as long as he keeps it under cover, say under his leg or under a newspaper or magazine or what-have-you. The law says it has to be concealed, it doesn't say it has to be in a holster. If his sixth sense is giving him the heebee-jeebees, then there is probably a reason, and a gun in the hand is much "readier" than trying to draw, especially seated in a car (one of the great advantages of snubbies and Kel-Tec-type pistols -- you can have it in your hand in your pants or jacket pocket if your warning system is twitching). If an imminent threat of death or injury materializes, driving away (over the sidewalk if necessary) would no doubt be the better option if available, but if his car picks that moment to cough and stall out, it would be good to have Plan B in hand.

Yes it would be better for one's immediate safety to stay away from that McDonald's in particular, and bus stations in general, but when you ceding an area to loonies and criminals, it just enhances their sense of possession. And yes it was awkward to stand in the entryway because of the backup at the drive-through, but awkward things happen every day, and you can't always foresee and avoid all of them. Ledjedi did not create the obnoxious guy screaming bad words.

[57Coastie]

If this appears to highjack LedJedi's thread, a moderator may do with it what he wishes. Many years with the federal government did away with any pride of authorship I may once have had.

Here is an article from an Arizona newspaper - http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2008 ... ews_46.txt

It reports that a legislative panel has approved legislation permitting people to pull out their guns without fear of winding up in jail -- if they believe they are in danger.

HB 2629 essentially would provide immunity from prosecution for anyone engaged in "defensive display" of a firearm. That ranges from telling another person you are armed to showing off the weapon as well as actually holding the gun -- as long as it is not pointed directly at another person.

If we had such a statute here in Texas would LedJedi's dilemma have been somewhat different?
Would it be nice to have such a statute in Texas?
Or would such a statute really make a significant change in Texas?

Just food for thought.

Jim

[seamusTX]

Here is a page on the Arizona legislative site for that bill: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/48 ... ud.doc.htm

It says that displaying a weapon (a.k.a. brandishing) is an offense in Arizona. This seems odd, since it is an open-carry state.

We already have a similar provision in Texas law. PC §9.04 allows "production of a weapon" when the use of force is justified. But note that the use of force is never justified by verbal provocation alone.

This law conflicts with other statutes that require handguns to be concealed (whether by a CHL holder or unlicensed car carry) unless the use of deadly force is justified. People have been arrested and prosecuted for violating those laws.

My gut feeling is that allowing display of weapons would defuse some situations and escalate others. It might also result in charges of deadly conduct against the defender, when the road rager (or whatever) called 911 and reported that the defender threatened him. These people would always be as pure as the driven snow, of course, and they might have a witness to back them up with a fabricated story.

ElGato says that happened to one of his students. You might recall the story.

- Jim

[austin]

Pre-drawing your weapon while in your car is a good idea.

I keep a pistol in my glove box for this thus leaving my carry pistol on me.

Both pistols are the same model BTW.

What would you have done had he not had a weapon but started beating on your car? Kicked in a window?

[BrassMonkey]

My gun would have been drawn and hiding in my hand just below the window. Gansta style, lol...

If he would have approached in a menacing fashion, I would have driven off.

[57Coastie]

Astute as usual, Jim. One takes his choice and lives with the result, even when there are unexpected consequences. But, in this arena, we have a chance of dying because of our choice. So perhaps we have to be more cautious when making our choice.

Cheers,

Jim

[CHLSteve]

I am very familiar with that particular McDonald's, and let me tell you that you were in danger indeed. That food will kill you! Didn't you ever see "Supersize Me"?

In all seriousness, find another place to stop for a bite--especially at night. That place is not the kind of place I would ever sit in my car with my wife at night at. But that's just me.

[Smokewagon]

About 30 seconds after I pull in some guy pulls around to use the entrance/exit I’m patiently waiting in. I guess he wasn’t happy with the amount of room left him so he sits there for a second. I look around to see if there’s a way I can pull out, but my only real option is to pull up out of waiting for the line, exit the lot, drive around the block and come back in, by which time the line will have moved.

This option would probably have defused this situation early.

[Longtooths]

I would have to disagree with your statement on being justified to draw your weapon if he approached your car. Verbal threats do not justify use of force. Unless you see he has a weapon on approaching, or starts trying to enter or damage your vehicle, you have to either ignore him, or move on. You best bet would be having the wife dialing 911, being at the ready, but no weapon drawn and leaving the location.

My two cents.

I agree Keith. Never ever pull with the intent to scare. Only pull if you are going to shoot.