Magazine Capacity An Asset In A Gunfight

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frankie wrote:

A better question might be, how many non-LEO defensive shootings in a given year involve expending more than 5 shots? Or 10? Or 2? Or how often did the defender winchester and get blown away? That would be useful and informative information that would give us a real world context to make judgements with.

Indeed it would, do you have any?

Here's an exerpt from an Ed Lovette article in the FEB 2008 issue of "Combat Handguns Magazine" titled, "Citizen Involved Assaults - Threat and response patterns you need to know!".

Number of shots fired by AC ("Armed Citizen"): Frequently just 1 but an average of 3.

Ed stated that he got this information from a compilation of what he "had on hand". He said he would provide sources in the next issue, but he did not. So it's not like it's hard, quantifiable data, but it's more data than has been provided so far by the proponents of carrying a lot of ammo.

Anybody got any data as to how many times in a given year an armed citizen either fires more than 5 or 6 shots or shoots his gun dry in self defense?

I think if we had some info on this, we could better compare the risks, hassles, and benefits of carrying lots of ammo to things like getting out of bed in the morning, driving, and walking around outside when we hear thunder rumbling off in the distance.

We all know that if you get hit by lightning, you will WISH that you had been sheltered inside a Faraday Cage at the time. So yes, it's true that if I happen to be there when an Al Qaeda death squad tries to run an op in my local shopping mall, I will wish that I had a few extra mags for my Commander. And I will be really ticked off with myself if I had decided to carry just the Kel-tec P32 that day.

But since we agree on that, let's get past it and try to figure out what else the real world can teach us.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Bottom line is: Carry whatever amount of ammunition that makes sense for your self defense plan and encourage others to do the same. We should not be critical or overly analytical of others choices… especially if unsolicited.

1) If that's true, then what's the point of this whole thread? The quoted article by Gabe Suarez went on for 42 paragraphs (count them) on this subject, when really, all he should have said, apparently, is, "Carry whatever amount of ammunition that makes sense for your self defense plan and encourage others to do the same."

2) Pardon me, but the OP was an "unsolicited" and extremely lengthy treatment of the reasons why it might be good to carry lots of ammo. Why are my relatively brief comments regarded as being "critical or overly analytical"? No one else's comments in this thread have been characterized this way. And just what constitutes being "overly" analytical? The OP that set forth the author's analysis was extremely analytical, and longer than all of my posts on this subject put together. No one complained that Mr. Suarez was being overly analytical (though I reserve the right to do so at some point.)

3) Something I just noticed from the OP.

The lone criminal or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one, consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.

I wish the author had presented some data to support this assertion. I have no idea whatsoever as to whether it's true or not.

From reading news reports of armed citizen incidents on this forum and other places, it seems like there are many assaults involving single perps and many involving multiple perps. From that, IMO it overstates the case to call the idea of the lone perp "an urban myth".

[Texasdoc]

I posted it thinking that it was interesting read, and didn't want it to start a range war over the amount you carry or what type of gun you use. I will be taking his classes in less 1week and it was sent to me as part of the web site.

So if its going to start this type of problems I will not post any of his articles any more.


Doc

[flintknapper]

Frankie wrote:

A better question might be, how many non-LEO defensive shootings in a given year involve expending more than 5 shots? Or 10? Or 2? Or how often did the defender winchester and get blown away? That would be useful and informative information that would give us a real world context to make judgements with.

Indeed it would, do you have any?

Here's an exerpt from an Ed Lovette article in the FEB 2008 issue of "Combat Handguns Magazine" titled, "Citizen Involved Assaults - Threat and response patterns you need to know!".

Number of shots fired by AC ("Armed Citizen"): Frequently just 1 but an average of 3.

Ed stated that he got this information from a compilation of what he "had on hand". He said he would provide sources in the next issue, but he did not. So it's not like it's hard, quantifiable data, but it's more data than has been provided so far by the proponents of carrying a lot of ammo.

Anybody got any data as to how many times in a given year an armed citizen either fires more than 5 or 6 shots or shoots his gun dry in self defense?

I think if we had some info on this, we could better compare the risks, hassles, and benefits of carrying lots of ammo to things like getting out of bed in the morning, driving, and walking around outside when we hear thunder rumbling off in the distance.

We all know that if you get hit by lightning, you will WISH that you had been sheltered inside a Faraday Cage at the time. So yes, it's true that if I happen to be there when an Al Qaeda death squad tries to run an op in my local shopping mall, I will wish that I had a few extra mags for my Commander. And I will be really ticked off with myself if I had decided to carry just the Kel-tec P32 that day.

But since we agree on that, let's get past it and try to figure out what else the real world can teach us.

I tend to agree with the figures you have provided. Like you, I have no hard evidence that "3" is the average, but all sources I have looked at over the years still support that number.

What we are not told though....is: How many persons were involved in these shootings.

This is very important.. because if the "average" number of shots taken.. represent the entire conflict (all threats)...then your position of normal capacity (8 rounds or less) is probably quite valid (unless your mag. fails).

OTOH, if the average is based on a "one on one" situation, then things change dramatically. In other words: Based on "averages" I need to carry three rounds for each threat present.

More and more we see violent crimes being committed by "groups" of people rather than just one. I can easily imagine a scenario where "two" armed BG's were present (if not more). Remember the "4 gansta types" that were behind you in New Mexico?

Add to the mix....that defensive situations tend to be dynamic (everybody moving)...and its not hard to see that getting good hits might be difficult. If I happen to have my 5 shot revolver with me and encounter two dedicated threats, I might be in real trouble. I think the "Saving Grace" in most encounters is simply that the threat chooses to disengage when confronted with someone who fights back. We can't not count on this however.

Ultimately, it is every persons choice. Carry the amount of ammo you are comfortable with.

For those carrying Semi-Autos (regardless of capacity), I believe it is good advice to carry a spare mag. just in case you have a malfunction.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I posted it thinking that it was interesting read, and didn't want it to start a range war over the amount you carry or what type of gun you use. I will be taking his classes in less 1week and it was sent to me as part of the web site.

So if its going to start this type of problems I will not post any of his articles any more.


Doc

It's no problem from where I sit. Post whatever you like, whenever you like.

Have a great time at the class. I'm sure it will be a cool experience, and that you will learn a lot of good stuff.

[flintknapper]

I posted it thinking that it was interesting read, and didn't want it to start a range war over the amount you carry or what type of gun you use. I will be taking his classes in less 1week and it was sent to me as part of the web site.

So if its going to start this type of problems I will not post any of his articles any more.


Doc

Hi Doc,

There is no need for concern. Frankie and I have a history of spirited debate. I am certain both of us should be banned...but the good folks here put up with us for some unknown reason.

Please continue to post anything you think will be of benefit to the rest of us. I am here to learn...and consider this forum to be a great source of information.

We appreciate your contributions.

Flint.

[boomerang]

2) Pardon me, but the OP was an "unsolicited" and extremely lengthy treatment of the reasons why it might be good to carry lots of ammo. Why are my relatively brief comments regarded as being "critical or overly analytical"? No one else's comments in this thread have been characterized this way. And just what constitutes being "overly" analytical? The OP that set forth the author's analysis was extremely analytical, and longer than all of my posts on this subject put together. No one complained that Mr. Suarez was being overly analytical (though I reserve the right to do so at some point.)

Gabe's comments were taken from a newsletter article. If someone subscribed to his newsletter, it seems they have solicited his opinions on these subjects.

Posting the newsletter article on TexasCHLforum.com was unsolicited in the same way nearly every OP that starts a thread is unsolicited.

I had some force on force training and my experience was similar to what he writes. People keep shooting until the threat is gone or they run out of ammo.

Disclaimer: I haven't trained with Gabe but I did read one of his books 6-7 years ago.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Ultimately, it is every persons choice. Carry the amount of ammo you are comfortable with.

I agree with the points you made in your last post.

I find my personal "comfort zone" varies from day to day. I can't explain it. For years, I was perfectly comfortable with the SP101. But as I read about these public rampage shootings occurring from time to time, I find myself reaching more often for my Commander or Para Carry. For me, it's not really magazine capacity that I have in mind. It's more that, other things being equal, I can shoot either of the 45's better than I can the revolver. So if I had to take a long shot, say beyond 10 yards or so, (as I envision might be more likely in a "Cho shooting up the mall" scenario) I am a lot more confident of getting a good hit with the 45's.

OTOH, I might just be up a tree on the end of a long limb with this kind of speculation. It's probably more likely that I get hit by lightning later this afternoon, when storms are forecast for my area, than I run into Cho shooting up the mall.

[flintknapper]

Bottom line is: Carry whatever amount of ammunition that makes sense for your self defense plan and encourage others to do the same. We should not be critical or overly analytical of others choices… especially if unsolicited.

1) If that's true, then what's the point of this whole thread? The quoted article by Gabe Suarez went on for 42 paragraphs (count them) on this subject, when really, all he should have said, apparently, is, "Carry whatever amount of ammunition that makes sense for your self defense plan and encourage others to do the same."

2) Pardon me, but the OP was an "unsolicited" and extremely lengthy treatment of the reasons why it might be good to carry lots of ammo. Why are my relatively brief comments regarded as being "critical or overly analytical"? No one else's comments in this thread have been characterized this way. And just what constitutes being "overly" analytical? The OP that set forth the author's analysis was extremely analytical, and longer than all of my posts on this subject put together. No one complained that Mr. Suarez was being overly analytical (though I reserve the right to do so at some point.)

3) Something I just noticed from the OP.

The lone criminal or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one, consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.

I wish the author had presented some data to support this assertion. I have no idea whatsoever as to whether it's true or not.

From reading news reports of armed citizen incidents on this forum and other places, it seems like there are many assaults involving single perps and many involving multiple perps. From that, IMO it overstates the case to call the idea of the lone perp "an urban myth".

Frankie,

I can not speak for Mr. Suarez.

If you have questions for him....or suggestions concerning his material, you can contact him directly here:

http://www.warriortalk.com/index.php


In my post....I used the word "We" (not you) in a collective and third person sort of way. Please do not take it personally. I value your opinion as much as anyone else's and have not singled you out.

This is just another topic that you and I have chosen to "labor". We are probably both racking up demerits over this, so maybe it is best to let it rest.

Take care,

Flint.

[WildBill]

Texasdoc - The article by Suarez is interesting and I thank you for posting it. The article such as the one you posted has no "right answer" so the author is never wrong. A good article does stimulate debate, which I think is good, but still there will be no definitive answer. It's still only opinions.

As I see it, the problem with most gun articles is that they are more entertainment than informative. Writers like Massad Ayoob have written hundreds or maybe thousands of articles over a 30 year period. They get paid to write and having to turn out a couple articles every month has got to be hard. I think that is the problem - they have nothing new to say. They rehash the same hackneyed stuff, add a few colorful ancedotes, throw in a few quotes from Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith or some other gun guru and they have a "new" story. If gun magazines just published new stuff they couldn't have a new issue every month.

My advice is to carry one more magazine than you will need.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I tend to agree with the figures you have provided. Like you, I have no hard evidence that "3" is the average, but all sources I have looked at over the years still support that number.

What we are not told though....is: How many persons were involved in these shootings.

More from the Feb 2008 piece in Combat Handguns that I referred to earlier.

Number of VCAs (Violent Criminal Actors) - Most often a lone young male, next most frequently seen was two.

Again, this is what Ed Lovette is saying and I have no way to verify it.

[Deaf Smith]

When I go out and about, I do not do so with the idea or feeling that I am heading into combat.

It's true that some form of combat may occur on the quickie mart run, but both the nature and the likelihood of the threat is vastly different than that faced by a soldier "headed into combat."

So the choices and tradeoffs in terms of equipment needed would reasonably be expected to be very different as well.

frankie,

I've twice been in situations where force was needed. Once when a guy broke into my parents house (I was home from college) and I held him at gunpoint for the cops. Another, on my honnymoon in the Virgin Islands, where another man and I held a purse snacher for the cops after chaseing him down (my first use of wrist lock for real.)

So I know for real it can happen. Like I said, a 10 shot light weight auto is not a 'backpack' of ammo, but it's way ahead of a snubbie (and I know alot about snubs.)

Yea you are right, there isn't anything 'magic' about 5 shots. While I've heard of one case where a woman cop stopped three bank robbers with a snubbie, hiting all three, I've heard of several emptying their guns at ONE, I repeat, one, assailant and missing. The snub is an experts gun, not some joe's gun who shoots a box of shells a year (and that's the majority of snubbie shooters.)

How would I know? I teach CHL classes and have had lots of students bring snubs. I've also been in IDPA for quite a while and when we have a BUG match, I see them shot alot (and rather poorly.)

A better gun with more magazine capacity would serve them better, but they would prefer comfort over comforting (if you have ever read Clint Smiths works.)

I'm not saying to drag around a 20 shot pistol with 4 spare mags and an AR with a chest full of mags in the car (not that there is anything wrong with that), only that like first-aid kits (which I HAVE used in emergency road side situations for other people) and fire extingusihers (which I HAVE used once to attempt to put out another guys engine fire) that one gets equipment that will go the distance in more than just what one 'thinks' they will get into.

As a result I have both an excellent first aid kit and fire extinusher in the car now. Just as I perfer a bit more firepower in my personal handguns than a 5 shot snub if I can in any way carry it.

I've learn all this from things happening to me and I know, as I posted above, "Its better to have and not need....".

[The Annoyed Man]

Deaf, you bring to mind a patient I saw once who walked into our ER one night and announced, "I think I've been shot." Indeed, he had - 6 rounds of .38 Special in the back - and he drove himself to the ER and walked in, made his announcement, and then passed out. We revived him. I asked him how he got shot in the back. He said he was fleeing a robbery attempt. His story actually did check out, but the point is that multiple rounds from a revolver, at fairly close ranges, failed to stop a running man.

[Deaf Smith]

Well Annoyed,

That goes to show you that pistols are not reliable stoppers (and someone could shoot that revolver!)

An old friend, who used to be a police chief around here, was a NYPD undercover cop for 17 years. He said the only time he had to fire his gun, at a very close quaters struggling suspect, he missed! Yes he had a 2 inch snub and the guy wasn't 3 ft from him.

My wife has been a CV-OR nurse, CV-ICU, Truma-1 ER, head of CV nursing, and well she has done lots of emergencies. When she worked in the OR they had lots of gun shots come in. Those with .22 and .25s usually walked in talking. Even some shot with 9mm and above walked in (but not all.) The ones that were always carried in? Shotgun. Usually a chest hit. Most died. The main trouble was, even with a bird shot blast in the chest, once you cleaned them up and opened the chest you found so many organs had been hit the internal bleeding was just to much to stop.

Yea, plenty of cases of multiple handgun shots not stopping the activities. Plenty of missing to! The only reason we carry handguns is cuase they are handy. Hard to belt on a 12 guage and it does kind of upset the natives.

[CompVest]

I posted it thinking that it was interesting read, and didn't want it to start a range war over the amount you carry or what type of gun you use. I will be taking his classes in less 1week and it was sent to me as part of the web site.

So if its going to start this type of problems I will not post any of his articles any more.


Doc

Hi Doc,

There is no need for concern. Frankie and I have a history of spirited debate. I am certain both of us should be banned...but the good folks here put up with us for some unknown reason.

Please continue to post anything you think will be of benefit to the rest of us. I am here to learn...and consider this forum to be a great source of information.

We appreciate your contributions.

Flint.

I personally appreciate these types of postings. Reading different views gives me an opportunity to further refine my own thoughts on these issues. Good job to those of you on our forum who are willing to "debate" not "argue" them. You help us all and I hope you continue. It is a skill to present differing opinions without personal attacks.

Thank you.