The referenced thread brought up an interesting topic. http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 56#p165656
Does NRA [or other] training or doctrine contradict reality, i.e. do BGs run at the sight of a gun?
Training vs Reality
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
Training vs Reality
NRA Endowment Member
Re: Training vs Reality
The more you sweat in training
the less you bleed on the street.
the less you bleed on the street.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's on the internet, thank a geek.
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Deaf Smith
- Junior Member
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Re: Training vs Reality
Training is a rather generic term.
There are stages to training, especially self defense.
1. Square static range. Learn the basics. Learn them right. This is a must least you get very bad habits from gun safety to weapon manipulation actual shooting techniques. You can also learn the fundamentals of low light shooting techniques and moving targets. Thunder Ranch, Gunsight, Firearms Academy of Seattle, or even your local range have such classes.
2. Dynamic range. Here is where the targets move. It's where you learn to move and hit other moving attackers.Here such as Tom Givens or Gabe Suarez and others have very good classes.
3. Lecutures on how to deal with attacks, both before, during, and after. Classes like LFI-1, Ayoobs class, does this.
4. Realty training. Here you leave the real guns home and use things like simulations, or paintball, or air-soft, or even just laser guns (and knives and clubs and.. well what is actually on the street.) Some call it Force on Force. Here you learn how to talk to suspected attackers. How it sense an attack coming. How to spot indicators. How to keep from being suckered or blindsided. And then how to actually handle the attack, either by just one attacker or by others. And not just with guns but with any handy weapon (called an environmental weapon) or just using your hands and feet. RMCAT ran by Payton Quinn, Jim Wagner with his Reality-Based Personal Protection, SOUTHNARC, and others have such classes that are eye openers.
Trouble is, that's alot of training above. Losts of $$$. Most are lucky to do #1 above. Others get to #2. It's a rare person who seaks out #3 or 4.
But even reality training will not perfectly prepare you for a real encounter for the simple reason a real BG picks you when they think they can take you and not at some convient time. The only way to really train for that is to, uh, have that happen to you (and OJT is not the way to learn that!)
The NRA does a real good job for what they offer, It's a sort of combination of the above but just covers the surface of 2,3, and 4. But considering the subject has so many variables and skills to be learned, well it's still a good offer.
There are stages to training, especially self defense.
1. Square static range. Learn the basics. Learn them right. This is a must least you get very bad habits from gun safety to weapon manipulation actual shooting techniques. You can also learn the fundamentals of low light shooting techniques and moving targets. Thunder Ranch, Gunsight, Firearms Academy of Seattle, or even your local range have such classes.
2. Dynamic range. Here is where the targets move. It's where you learn to move and hit other moving attackers.Here such as Tom Givens or Gabe Suarez and others have very good classes.
3. Lecutures on how to deal with attacks, both before, during, and after. Classes like LFI-1, Ayoobs class, does this.
4. Realty training. Here you leave the real guns home and use things like simulations, or paintball, or air-soft, or even just laser guns (and knives and clubs and.. well what is actually on the street.) Some call it Force on Force. Here you learn how to talk to suspected attackers. How it sense an attack coming. How to spot indicators. How to keep from being suckered or blindsided. And then how to actually handle the attack, either by just one attacker or by others. And not just with guns but with any handy weapon (called an environmental weapon) or just using your hands and feet. RMCAT ran by Payton Quinn, Jim Wagner with his Reality-Based Personal Protection, SOUTHNARC, and others have such classes that are eye openers.
Trouble is, that's alot of training above. Losts of $$$. Most are lucky to do #1 above. Others get to #2. It's a rare person who seaks out #3 or 4.
But even reality training will not perfectly prepare you for a real encounter for the simple reason a real BG picks you when they think they can take you and not at some convient time. The only way to really train for that is to, uh, have that happen to you (and OJT is not the way to learn that!)
The NRA does a real good job for what they offer, It's a sort of combination of the above but just covers the surface of 2,3, and 4. But considering the subject has so many variables and skills to be learned, well it's still a good offer.
Deaf
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Charles L. Cotton
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- Location: Friendswood, TX
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Re: Training vs Reality
If you accept the Kleck and Lott studies, and I do, then the vast majority of the time attackers do flee when their would-be victim produces a gun. However, this includes all interaction between criminals and victims, not just arms-length attacks with a gun already drawn.WildBill wrote:The referenced thread brought up an interesting topic. http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 56#p165656
Does NRA [or other] training or doctrine contradict reality, i.e. do BGs run at the sight of a gun?
Since we must train for worst case scenario, then all training must be based upon the presumption that the attackers will not be deterred. As for the NRA's personal protection courses, I don't think they ignore reality at all. They are "basic" personal protection classes in that they focus on skills that are basic in the transition from slow-fire accurate shooting often used when just plinking to "combat" shooting. While the NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home courses are excellent courses for making this transition, I strongly recommend people get additional training, if at all possible.
As a side note, even the advanced courses I've taken incorporate the possibility of the BG "running away" rather than engaging. Students will draw, but not engage. I do likewise even in the NRA PPIH and PPOH courses. The purpose is to help prevent training students that every time they draw their pistol, someone has to get shot.
I hope I've answered your question, but if I've missed something, just let me know.
Chas.
